The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary session. The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and the first question this afternoon is from Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Local Authorities

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 1. What additional financial resources is the Welsh Government providing to local authorities to help them deal with the cost-of-living crisis? OQ58608

Rebecca Evans AC: At the spending review, we maximised the use of all of our available funding. I prioritised funding for local government in the Welsh budget so that every authority in Wales received an increase in funding of more than 8.4 per cent.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for that response.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: People are petrified at the prospect of being unable to afford the basics this winter and they have little faith in a super-rich Prime Minister doing anything for them. In the absence of adequate help from Westminster, reserves that local authorities hold for rainy days need to be deployed. Unfortunately, you have local authorities like the Labour-run Caerphilly County Borough Council holding an astronomical reserve of £180 million. This stack of cash, which is bigger than the reserves held by the largest local authority in Wales, increased by £16 million in the last financial year alone. This is why my Plaid Cymru colleague Councillor Greg Ead has called for the Caerphilly county council cost-of-living hardship fund to be increased from £3 million to £10 million. Should the Government mandate a limit on how big cash reserves can get to prevent Scrooge-like local authorities sitting on huge pots of cash?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm not sure that's a fair characterisation of local authorities and the way that they look towards their reserves. But, to be perfectly frank, I am glad that local authorities generally are in a much better position than they otherwise would have been, and that's partly thanks to the additional £50 million that we provided to local government at the end of the last financial year. And that was to help them manage their budget in response to the emerging inflationary and service pressures, which they were identifying and experiencing at that point.
But, I think that we do need to think about reserves in relation to the overall budget of local government. And certainly, at an all-Wales level, the widest interpretation of usable reserves—and I think that that is an important point—is 26 per cent of the total annual expenditure. So, that's just three months provision for all of the costs of local government. So, I'm pleased that local authorities are in a better place than they otherwise would have been thanks to the additional funding we were able to provide. But, at the same time, I do have to say that usable reserves are different to the general reserves position because, of course, local authorities will have earmarked funding for various things, not least our investment in the sustainable communities for learning programme and the new schools and so on.

Tom Giffard AS: I thank Peredur Owen Griffiths for tabling this question. I just wanted to follow up as well on the point about reserves, because I think it is important, and you're right—people don't necessarily understand the definition of usable reserves, particularly those councils that call them usable reserves and then never use them. So, in my region of South Wales West, Bridgend, Neath Port Talbot and Swansea councils, in 2019-20, had a combined £288 million in reserves. In 2021, that went to £400 million. Can you explain why those three councils, two of them run by your party, have added £110 million to their usable reserves in a year and do you back it?

Rebecca Evans AC: Absolutely I can explain that, Llywydd, and it's called 'the pandemic', and that is one of the reasons why local government was provided with significant additional funding through the pandemic. And I have no doubt that local authorities, given the huge gap in funding that they've identified not only for this year, but into future years as well, will be looking at those reserves. But, let's remember, you can only spend those reserves once, so when I'm hearing calls, for example, for increases in pay and other pressures, you can only use those reserves once, and I know that local authorities will be looking to use those reserves very carefully. But, I make no apology whatsoever for providing significant additional funding to local authorities through the pandemic, and, frankly, I'm glad that they're in a better position than they otherwise would have been had we decided not to.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Tom Giffard and I were at a briefing only in the last two weeks with Welsh local government leaders from our area, but also at a national level in Wales, having quite a frank assessment about the perilous state of local authority finances. And, of course, we also know this spreads right across the voluntary and third sector as well, at the time when the need for those public services and the reach of the third sector into communities has never been so acute. So, could I ask you, away from froth over reserves, which, frankly, if they are available and there's a bit in there, are going to be used pretty damn rapidly now—pardon my French, Presiding Officer—how can we actually target resources from Welsh Government to ensure that, right across the sectors, local authorities and local, regional and also third sector organisations are really tackling the cost-of-living crisis and collaborating together to do so, because we know we're going to have to stretch this money, reserves or not, a hell of a lot further than we've ever done before?

Rebecca Evans AC: I absolutely agree that the approach has to be one of social partnership in terms of addressing the cost-of-living crisis. And this is one of the reasons why the First Minister has set up a cost-of-living Cabinet sub-committee, which I and other Ministers attend, but also we invite to those meetings representatives of the third sector, local government and other social partners to ensure that we're all pulling in the same direction and maximising our resources in ways that are complementary to one another. So, I just want to reassure colleagues that that is absolutely the approach that we're taking.
And I think that we can also look to some of the work that I've been doing in recent times in terms of our approach to grants policy. It used to be the case that we would have one-year grants, and that would be very difficult for the third sector in particular, but also others, including in local government, to be able to have that longer term and more strategic look at how they spend their money. So, now we have allowed grants to be up to five years—if they can roll over, they have to meet benchmarking and other due diligence tests as well. But I think that that has helped to give that longer term look, which also then provides better value for money.

Jane Dodds AS: May I too thank Peredur for raising this issue?

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. Since the pandemic, many of our care workers have been struggling to make ends meet, and I'm sure many of us have heard about the situation that both those receiving care and those giving care are in. In July, the new administration of Powys County Council—a group of political parties: Liberal Democrat, Labour and Green; and we all need to work together on this as this shouldn't be about party politics in our local government finance, because we all know the people who receive those services—raised the travel expenses to 45p a mile, in line with their local authority employees. That package cost around £150,000 to implement, Minister. What consideration have you, the Government, given to support local authorities to continue with that funding for care workers, to ensure that they deliver that vital social care to vulnerable people? Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rebecca Evans AC: So, in the first instance, we're seeking to impress upon the UK Government the importance within HMRC of raising that per-mile payment in respect of travel related to work. So, that's our first way in which we're trying to address this, and I know that my colleague Vaughan Gething's officials have been active in their discussions with HMRC on this. My officials have also raised it with Treasury, and it's my intention also to raise this issue with the new Chief Secretary to the Treasury in due course as well.

Monmouthshire County Council

John Griffiths AC: 2. What discussions has the Minister had with the newly elected leadership at Monmouthshire County Council? OQ58622

Rebecca Evans AC: I held an introductory meeting with the new leader in August. And I also meet all leaders regularly through our fortnightly meetings at the Welsh Local Government Association executive board and separately on issues such as taxation reform. I have also discussed local government financial challenges with Monmouthshire’s deputy leader through the finance sub-group.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, you'll be aware that Newport East includes the Severnside area, which comes under Monmouthshire County Council. I was very pleased in May to see Labour take control of the council there, for the first time since the mid 1990s. I know the new leader, Mary Ann Brocklesby, and her cabinet have ambitious plans to tackle the affordability gap in housing in Monmouthshire. The area has suffered from historic underinvestment in affordable housing and has had an over-reliance on private landlords. Recently, the new Labour council approved plans for 100 per cent affordable housing on the former Caldicot school site, with Monmouthshire Housing Association being the preferred bidder. This illustrates the ambition and the work of the new Monmouthshire County Council, Minister. But I just wonder how you, as finance Minister, working with the Minister for Climate Change, can work closely with the new leadership to support them in their ambitions for more affordable housing in this area.

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm grateful to John Griffiths for raising this issue, and I do recognise what he says in terms of property prices being higher than average in Monmouthshire, and there obviously are links between job opportunities and higher house prices. But property prices can be skewed, of course, by second home ownership and also by a significant number of short-term holiday lets in an area, which is why the work that we're doing in partnership with Plaid Cymru to address the second home challenges is really important, and will have an impact, I think, in Monmouthshire.
But, of course, it's important that there is good-quality social housing and affordable private rental sector housing available in these areas, and schemes such as that which you've described, which I know has now been confirmed by Monmouthshire County Council's new administration, are exactly the sort of ambition that this Welsh Government wants to see in terms of fulfilling our citizens' needs. So, I can reassure John Griffiths that I and my colleague the Minister for Climate Change will absolutely be keen to support Monmouthshire in their ambitions.

Peter Fox AS: I thank John Griffiths for raising this, and I very much welcome the renewed focus of the Welsh Government on Monmouthshire; it was sadly lacking for 13 years when I was a leader. And I'm also very pleased that the new Labour administration is taking forward the plans we put in place, so I do thank them.
Minister, you will know that I've consistently pushed, throughout my time in local government, and since I've been here, the importance of fair funding, and I've challenged the current funding formula several times. And I know the First Minister said only yesterday that if local government wants a change in the formula, if they ask for it, you'll do it. Now, we know turkeys won't vote for Christmas, and there are several leaders who are accruing up to £208 million of reserves while some only have £30 million of reserves. They're not going to vote for something that dismantles that. Can I ask you, Minister, if you will take the initiative to invoke an independent commission on the funding formula? We know there's only one pie and it's unlikely to get any bigger, but some people have huge slices and others have crumbs. That is not fair, and it's the responsibility of this Government, working with local authorities, to change that. Can you do that? Can you invoke that commission?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, Llywydd, the core revenue funding that we provide to local authorities every year is distributed according to relative need, and that uses a formula that takes into account a wealth of information, including the demographic, physical, economic and social characteristics of authorities. And there is no evidence whatsoever that any authority, or a group of authorities, with any particular geographical or social characteristics, are being disadvantaged through that local government funding formula.It is free from political agenda, it's free from political influence and it's driven by data. And, in fact, the formula is set by 70 different indicators of the need to spend, and the majority of that, representing 72 per cent of the funding, is updated annually. And, of course, to ensure that level of independence, we do have independent members on the distribution sub-group to ensure that there's no bias in favour or against the interests of any individual authority.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands MS: Diolch, Llywydd, and good afternoon, Minister. As you may have seen from social media over the weekend, Minister, a 2022 council candidate from Newport received hundreds of pounds-worth of damage to his car, and that isn't the first attack on his property, with targets to his house, nails pushed into his car tyres and social media trolling during the recent council and Senedd elections. So, in light of this, Minister, what are your views on council candidates, who are willing to put their head above the parapet and represent their communities, having to deal with this abhorrent abuse?

Rebecca Evans AC: First of all, I would just like to say—and I know that Sam Rowlands agrees with me on this—that we have to give respect to anybody who puts themselves forward as a candidate for a community council, town council or county council election, because it does take an element of bravery to do that. And the abuse of any candidate is absolutely unacceptable and we have to do everything that we can to prevent it.
One of the things that I'm really pleased that we were able to do was to ensure that we removed the need for candidates to provide publicly their home address, which I think does provide a level of safety and security, although I know that candidates are often very well known anyway within their communities, so we have to bear that in mind. And we're also currently undertaking some work looking at a survey that we did of members of the public to gauge their understanding of councillorsand the role that councillors play within their communities, to see what more we can do in terms of helping people better understand the role of councillors and, hopefully, that might bridge some of that gap between the lack of understanding that some people will have and the actual immense dedication that people put into these roles. And whether or not they are eventually elected, I think that we have to pay due respect to those people for putting themselves forward.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister, for your response and for outlining some of the actions that are already in plan. Clearly, this is not just a recent issue as well, or a single issue for one candidate. We saw, in May's elections, that paint was thrown over cars owned by a long-serving Swansea councillor, which led to irreparable damage; we saw two councillors in Caerphilly receive abuse letters, calling them all sorts of things and the police had to get involved in that; in addition, a Cardiff councillor, who'd been a councillor here for a long time, shared some horrific stories about some of the abuse that she has had to face up to over recent years. So, you've outlined already, Minister, some of the work and the actions that you're undertaking. I'd be really keen to understand when you expect some fruit off the back of that, and when we can expect to see not just the understanding of it, but the actual real implementation of those potential actions, because it's really important, as you say, and as we all agree, that we protect our local councillors, our local candidates, from this disgusting behaviour.

Rebecca Evans AC: I think one of the important things that we have to do as well is to help councillors understand that this kind of behaviour isn't acceptable, because there's often an inclination on the part of elected representatives to think that abuse just comes with the job, and it absolutely shouldn't, and I know that we all appreciate that in this Chamber. And that's one of the reasons, again, why we've recently refreshed 'The good councillor's guide', and that very much is about helping those councillors understand what is and isn't acceptable in terms of the response that they receive and potentially the abuse that they receive, and it also then helps them to understand what support might be available to them. So, you would expect individual local authorities to be putting in place the appropriate plans to support the welfare and the well-being of those councillors, but also to be working in partnership locally with the police, who can also provide additional support and advice, as necessary, for the more serious kind of abuse and, in some cases, almost violence, that you've described.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Yes. Thank you, again, Minister for that, and it's pleasing to see that. I'm sure we all agree around this Chamber that more needs to be done and is being done to ensure that our candidates and elected members are being properly protected. But, again, we did see, in May's election, 74 uncontested seats, with many people suggesting that they're not willing to stand because of the fear, at times, of some of the abuse and behaviour pointed towards candidates. Of course, it's this level of democracy that is absolutely so fundamental not just to delivering services, but also as an example of elected individuals being able to make those decisions without fear or favour. We do have a new cohort of councillors elected in May's elections, so I wonder what work you may be doing with them to ensure that they, now in their elected positions, feel confident to make some of those difficult decisions without that fear of intimidation from all sorts of people who, sadly, are in our community?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you again for that important question. Like you, I was disappointed at the level of uncontested seats. I think that having contested seats and giving local people a choice is a really positive thing, which is why the work that we're doing through our diversity and democracy programme is so important in terms of widening up access to elected office by all people in our community. We've introduced our access to elected office fund, which will, hopefully, support a wider range of people to become candidates, and we had some success with that. It was administered at the last election by Disability Wales, but we're considering now what other protected characteristics we can bring into that wider work as well. But I know that the Welsh Local Government Association and individual local authorities do work hard to support incoming councillors to understand these things, and, hopefully, to signpost them to where they can find local support, in the event that they should feel threatened or undermined in any way in their particular role, but I'm more than happy to have some further conversations, if there are good ideas as what more we or local authorities can be doing in this important space.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Afternoon, Minister. Cumulatively, the financial pressures building up in the local government system, of course, are beyond anything, really, that we've probably ever seen before, even though pressures in the current financial year were offset somewhat by a better than expected settlement for this year. That feels a different world away, doesn't it—only, what, eight months ago when that 9.4 per cent settlement was confirmed.
It is becoming clear that additional in-year pressures, amounting to over £0.25 billion, are potentially facing local councils in Wales this year, and there's an expected cumulative shortfall of over £800 million by the end of this three-year spending or funding cycle. Every authority is now reporting budget gaps, and other maybe than the experience of the early months of the COVID pandemic, these are unprecedented pressures that are being faced. So, the risks to all local government services, including, of course, significant statutory services, such as education and social care, can't be underestimated. So, if, as is being suggested, statutory services are facing significant cuts, what discussions have you had or what consideration are you giving to actually advising local authorities about which statutory services they should be prioritising? Because many of those councils are telling me that they need a clear steer from the Welsh Government. In a climate where they just can't deliver what they're expected to deliver, the message I'm getting is that the Welsh Government really needs to make it clear what councils are expected to prioritise when it comes to protecting key services.

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I've had the opportunity to discuss these issues in depth with the local authority leaders very recently. So, as you've heard, we have now fortnightly meetings with local authority leaders. In last week's meeting, actually, one of the substantive items was budgetary pressures, and they were able to give those figures to me at that meeting. We also had, last week or the week before, a meeting of the finance sub-group, which again delved into those figures in greater detail. Obviously, they are extremely concerning in terms of the pressures that are being faced.
So, I'm being told that key areas include pay inflation, energy costs, schools, social care, the response to the situation in Ukraine and wider migration issues, alongside housing, homelessness and, of course, capital investment and the associated investment in climate change—so, lots of important areas there. Some of them aren't statutory, but nonetheless absolutely vital. So, we are having discussions with local authorities to see what we can practically do to support them. One of those things might be to assist them in terms of the prioritisation exercise locally. We're also looking at the grants that we provide to local government. So, £1.2 billion of grants are provided to local government every year, and local government is making the case that perhaps some of those should go into the revenue support grant rather than through particular grants, so I've said that I would broker discussions with whichever relevant Ministers need to be involved in those. And also looking again to see around the capitalisation of some costs—they've asked us to look at that. So, we've returned to local government asking for some more detail on those discussions. So, we are being as helpful as we possibly can be, obviously, to local government at what is a really worrying time for them and for us.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Okay, well, that was very nearly everything that you're prioritising, so I'm not sure whether that's possible, but I am glad that that engagement and that discussion is happening, because the message is coming through clearly that they need to know what the Government's priorities are in terms of what you're asking them to deliver under these circumstances.
I'm glad that you said that you're looking at what you 'can practically do'—your words—to support local councils, because they are very conscious as well that additional responsibilities and roles and duties are coming in their direction from Welsh Government through regulations, through legislation et cetera. They see things such as enforcing the single-use plastic ban, which I know all of us—very many of us—want to see implemented. That may well lead to additional costs. Dare I say it, implementing the 20 mph speed limit as well does bring with it additional work that needs to be done. So, councils are making it clear that, without additional resources, something else has to give.
So, can you confirm whether you're committed either to providing those additional resources to meet the new duties that the Government is asking local authorities to deliver, or, if you don't provide those additional resources, are you discussing what else they do not need to do in order to free up that capacity to deliver those additional duties, or, indeed, whether the Government is taking a step back, looking at the bigger picture and proactively profiling the implementation of new responsibilities in order to smooth out the workload?

Rebecca Evans AC: I can see that the Plaid Cymru spokesperson and I have been having the same conversations with local government leaders in recent times, and that you're hearing very much the same message as I am, which I think is a positive thing. Again, that's one of the other things that we're looking at in terms of what we can practically do to support local government around the additional expectations that we're placing on local government, the additional things that we're asking them to do, exploring with them now what specifically—. So, you've named a couple of those specific areas, but we've asked officials to explore with local government what specifically they're finding to be putting extra pressure on their resources, on their time, on their finances and so on, to see if there are things that we can practically do to help them in that space as well. So, just to reassure you that those discussions are very live at the moment.

Increased Energy Costs

Luke Fletcher AS: 3. What consideration has the Welsh Government given to how it can help local authorities to devise contingency plans to mitigate against increased energy costs? OQ58616

Rebecca Evans AC: Rising energy costs are significantly worrying for local communities and we call for the UK Government to take action to stem the increases. Welsh Government delivers support across the public sector through investing in skills, energy efficiency, research, innovation, decarbonisation and a renewable energy future for Wales.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Gweinidog. Huw has already mentioned the joint meeting that us South Wales West Members attended with council leaders across our region, and I would thank Mike Hedges for setting up that meeting. The reality of the situation is dire. We are facing wholesale cuts of council services. Bridgend County Borough Council face, for example, an unprecedented financial challenge over the coming years and estimate that spending reductions of up to £20 million in the 2023-24 financial period may be required to balance the budget. Now, whilst I live in hope that the now-delayed budget will bring some relief—I like to think that I'm optimistic every now and then—what work is the Welsh Government doing with local authorities to help them manage their budgets, but also to help our third sector providers and volunteer organisations manage theirs? Times are tough, they're about to get tougher, but times like these also require co-operation across all levels to protect our constituents.

Rebecca Evans AC: I join you in also thanking Mike Hedges for facilitating the discussion. I can tell that it was a very impactful discussion, based not only on the order paper for questions today; I see that those discussions that you've had with local government have really had an impact in terms of giving you a real idea of the kinds of pressures that they're under and the holes in their budgets that they are looking to deal with. I know that you're particularly concerned about the cost of energy, and we are working really closely with local authorities. Local authorities themselves this financial year are in a better position in the sense that most of them purchase their energy from the Crown Commercial Service, so they're protected in this financial year from the volatile global energy prices. But what we're doing at the moment is assessing the impact on prices and budgets for 2023-24, and our Welsh Government procurement professionals are currently working with suppliers and the Crown Commercial Service to support local authorities so that they can plan at least with a level of confidence in terms of the numbers for the next year.
As many of the local authorities' contracts have already been agreed, I think that we're less worried, as I say, this year, but our real concerns are for next year, and this is why it's really important that the UK Government's energy review concludes rapidly, so that we can provide that confidence, but also that it really does consider the impact on local government and on the third sector, as you've referred to, as well, in terms of allowing them to keep on providing the vital services that they do. I'm sure we've all had discussions about the cost of just keeping the lights on in schools, for example, which has gone through the roof for future years. So, I know that those discussions are live, and just to reassure you that our procurement team are involved in that.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, local authorities are responsible for agreeing school budgets, and energy is one of the big costs our schools face. In many schools we see big old boilers that are very expensive to run. What assessments have you made, together with local authorities, of the costs now facing schools as we look to the next six and 12 months? And what measures are you considering to ensure that our schools can keep warm? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, of course, the best thing that could happen to keep schools warm would be for the UK Government to step into this space. [Interruption.] I hear the Conservatives groaning out loud, but that is going to be the real answer in terms of ensuring that there is an affordable price for energy within schools. That's not the Welsh Government abdicating its responsibility. It's not the Welsh Government's responsibility to step in on energy prices. Welsh Government couldn't introduce a windfall tax, even if we wanted to, because we don't have the powers to do so. That's something that the UK Government should be stepping in to do at this point.
Fortunately, we have had discussions about reserves earlier in this question session, and reserves within schools are looking healthy. So, some schools will be able to make investments and be able to consider how they use those reserves in respect of addressing the cost-of-living crisis. That said, I am very mindful that the positive situation for reserves in schools isn't uniform across Wales, and there are schools that don't have those significant reserves that they'll be looking to rely on.

Question 4 [OQ58605] has been withdrawn. Question 5, Heledd Fychan.

Statutory Services in South Wales Central

Heledd Fychan AS: 5. How is the Welsh Government supporting local authorities in South Wales Central to maintain their statutory services? OQ58625

Rebecca Evans AC: This year, the Welsh Government is providing unhypothecated revenue funding of over £5.1 billion, and over £1 billion in specific grant funding in support of local authority statutory and non-statutory services.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. I was referencing, in particular, the authorities within my region.

Heledd Fychan AS: One essential statutory provision is social services, and, specifically, care. We know that there are huge problems when it comes to recruiting carers. As a result, more and more individuals are becoming unpaid carers in order to look after their loved ones, and they face financial hardship as a result. Have there been any discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association in terms of extending the financial support for living costs to all unpaid carers, not just the 10 per cent who currently receive carers allowance? Furthermore, can more be done to promote the fact that it’s possible for unpaid carers to receive direct payments for providing care, even if they are living in the same household, if it is not possible to find alternative care? Many families are under the impression that this is not possible, but the truth is that local authorities have the right to allow this with appropriate evidence. So, have there been any discussions with the WLGA about this?

Rebecca Evans AC: I know that the Minister for social services was at the recent meeting regarding budget pressures that local authority leaders were at, and they were able to have at least some starting of the discussions in terms of the specific concerns and pressures around social care. But I think the point that you make really does speak to the 'Claim what's yours' campaign that we're undertaking at the moment, because, as you say, there are plenty of people who are not aware that they're able to claim carers allowance. There are lots of people who aren't aware that they are able to claim direct payments, so it's important that we undertake as much work as we can to ensure that people are claiming everything to which they're entitled, especially at this difficult time. So, yes, we will absolutely redouble our efforts in that space.

Joel James MS: Minister, as you're aware and has already been brought up by several Members in this Chamber, local authorities in Wales have vast usable reserves in their coffers. At the end of the 2020-21 financial year, this totalled over £2.1 billion, an increase of £600 million on the year before, with some local authorities, such as my own of Rhondda Cynon Taf, having just under £208 million in usable reserves. You will also be aware that the calculation for the amount that local authorities will receive from the revenue support grant assumes that there is no use of, or addition to, these financial reserves. This ultimately means, Minister, that local authorities are incentivised to keep increasing council tax rates year on year, and hoarding money without any financial impact on the RSG from the Welsh Government. This also means that council tax payers are hit hard year on year with higher and higher council tax bills, just so that councils can keep increasing their financial reserves. With this in mind, Minister, what assessment have you made of limiting the amount of usable reserves that a council can hold before the RSG is affected? And what impact assessment have you made of the detriment that households face when local authorities continue to increase their council tax rates when they have such substantial usable reserves?

I'm not sure whether the Minister is able to hear. Were you able to hear that?

Rebecca Evans AC: I heard the—

There was a lot of conversation going on on the same benches as the Member who was asking the question. Did you hear?

Rebecca Evans AC: I did. I understood 90 per cent—

The Minister to respond.

Rebecca Evans AC: —so I think we're okay.

You can answer the question. They're now falling out over who was having the conversation. [Laughter.] Minister. Minister.

Rebecca Evans AC: Okay. So, to answer the question on reserves: I think it is a positive thing that local government has significant reserves when we move into a cost-of-living crisis. And let's remember, when we were discussing the budget last year, we were talking about that improved settlement in this first year of the three-year spending review, which gave local authorities over 9 per cent of an increase in their budget. But we talked, even at that time, when we had no real concept of the size of the cost-of-living crisis coming towards us, that years 2 and 3 of the spending review period were going to be difficult, so I think it's entirely right that local authorities now are looking to see how they can use their reserves in an appropriate way to help manage some of that particular pressure. I do think it is for local authorities to decide at what rate they set their council tax; it is a really important part of local democracy, and I think that we would only step in in extreme circumstances to tell local authorities what to do on council tax. I do believe it's an important tool that should be used on a local basis.

The Funding of Local Authorities in South Wales West

Sioned Williams MS: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the funding of local authorities in South Wales West? OQ58621

Rebecca Evans AC: I will continue to prioritise funding for all local authorities in Wales through a transparent, equitable and jointly produced distribution formula for the local government settlement with our local government partners.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Weinidog. Minister, the leader of Neath Port Talbot Council asked me, in a recent letter, to press for sufficient additional resources to enable the council to continue to support its communities through the current crises. He compares the current cost-of-living crisis with the COVID crisis, when local government demonstrated time and time again how it is uniquely placed to respond to local needs. But NPT estimate that they are facing unfunded in-year pressures of £10 million, and £24 million during the next financial year. At the same time, of course, the continued impact of the pandemic and current economic crisis have created unprecedented demand on services. For example, presentations to NPT's housing options service are 400 per cent higher than pre pandemic, contacts with children's social services are 300 per cent higher, and I attended that same regional WLGA meeting last week, in which the same bleak situation was repeated and outlined. So, how is the Minister going to ensure that our local authorities are able to maintain core services? We know the door of No. 10 Downing Street is shut firmly in Wales's face, so what answer will council leaders of South Wales West get from Cardiff Bay? Raising council tax isn't a progressive option, so what other ways are there to raise the required revenue?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much for the question, and I do recognise that similarity in terms of the crisis of the pandemic and the crisis of the cost-of-living crisis. What's different, of course, is that the pandemic attracted significant additional funding in terms of helping us to manage that, whereas the cost-of-living crisis has not provided us with significant additional funding to help us manage the crisis. And I just want to be really clear that we have allocated all of the available funding. So, you'll have seen our budget this year: we had a small contingency reserve for in-year this year. Next year, we've allocated everything, so we will be managing any additional spend through the Wales reserve and that alone, and the same for the following year.
So, we've also got an over-programme on capital, which is obviously very stretched in the first place, and at the time we set that, we didn't realise that UK Government would be taking £30 million back in respect of supporting the arms for Ukraine. So, the budget is extremely stretched; there's no additional significant funding to be allocated, so it really is going to be a case now of hoping that the UK Government does the right thing at its spending review—sorry, at its autumn budget when it appears—and does provide the additional funding that authorities are calling out for, and I have to say, the health service is also calling out for in this situation as well. So, we await that with interest. It's a shame that it's been pushed back, because that makes our own budget planning much more difficult, and it makes it more difficult then for us to provide the kind of reassurance, or at least assurance, that the leader of Neath Port Talbot, and other leaders, are seeking from us at this time.

Tax Policy

Rhys ab Owen AS: 7. What consideration has the Minister given to revising tax policy due to the cost-of-living crisis? OQ58603

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Government is committed to supporting the most vulnerable through this cost-of-living crisis using our fiscal and policy levers. As part of the budget process, I will consider how we can continue to support our most vulnerable people through the cost-of-living crisis.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. Our friends in Scotland have greater levers than us to use. They have a progressive income tax system, introduced by the SNP Scottish Government, which ensures that those on lower income pay less tax than elsewhere in the United Kingdom, supporting stronger public services whilst also safeguarding those on lower incomes; a fairer tax system where those with the broadest shoulders are taking most of the weight. I hope, Minister, that you will raise this with your counterparts, with the shadow Cabinet at Westminster, so that Wales will also have the powers to vary the tax bands. Would the Minister agree with me that we shouldn't be left behind by our Scottish friends as they create a fairer nation up there?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, it is the case that we have a different system, and, of course, our system was only agreed in 2016. We've only been collecting Welsh rates of income tax for a couple of years, so it is important, I think, at least in this first instance, to let the system bed in, but also, I think, to understand what the implications would be of us having a more progressive, as you say, banding system. So, it's an interesting discussion that we should be having, whilst also considering what the implications would be for our overall tax take here in Wales and what options might be available to us. So, you know, there is work going on in terms of considering the future of the United Kingdom, including fiscal levers, and I think that that plays in well to those particular discussions.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Building on the tax powers that you have, finance Minister, are you in a position this afternoon to inform us, for every penny that you might seek to raise, if that was your advice to Cabinet at the budget-setting period, how much extra money would come into the Welsh Government coffers in the 45p and 40p threshold, and, conversely, every penny you might take off, what that would lose to the Treasury here in Wales? And, any behavioural concepts that you might have modelled into your advice to Cabinet, would you make that available so that Members are in possession of the full facts when considering the tax powers?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, Llywydd, we do have the Welsh rates of income tax ready reckoner, which was published in 2021, so it's there for all colleagues to be looking at and using. It's available on the Welsh Government's website, and that does show the effects of changes to the Welsh rates of devolved income tax revenue. So, you're able to play around with it and look at different things. But, just for clarity, the basic rate of income tax for next year, if we were to raise or lower it by 1p, that would have an impact of £220 million; for the higher rate, it would be £33 million; and the additional rate, £5 million. And, of course, there will potentially be behavioural impacts. We don't have a very clear view of what the behavioural impacts would be; those behavioural impacts, I think, would probably only come into play in the additional rate, in any case, because those people tend to be people who are potentially more mobile and who would have different options in terms of structuring their tax affairs. But, of course, I know that the former Finance Committee did an interesting piece of work that did look at the potential of people moving across borders to avoid an increase in additional rates of income tax. So, all of that information is available, and I do commend the ready reckoner to colleagues who want to find out a bit more about what the implications of different choices might be. But, I should say that any choice that we make will be announced alongside our draft budget on 13 December.

The UK Government's Fiscal Statement

Jack Sargeant AC: 8. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the UK Government's fiscal statement on Alyn and Deeside? OQ58609

Rebecca Evans AC: Despite the reversals made on many elements of the mini budget, the damage has been done. Households and businesses in Alyn and Deeside and elsewhere are facing higher borrowing costs and greater economic uncertainty. We now face the prospect of more austerity in our already hard-pressed public services.

Jack Sargeant AC: Thank you for your response, Minister. The Tory party want us all to pretend that it was a different Tory party that crashed the economy with reckless giveaways. [Interruption.] Whether they're Conservatives or Tories, they're all under the same hat. Now, they crashed the economy with their giveaways to millionaires and billionaires just a few weeks ago. Minister, you're right; the damage from the most disastrous fiscal statement is done. They then were determined to cause more uncertainty in the budgets with their so-called Halloween statement, only for it to emerge today that they'll scare us sometime towards the end of November. But in the meantime, with all this nonsense on the corridors of Westminster, with the power struggles they have, residents in Alyn and Deeside are struggling. They require certainty, Minister. Do you agree with me that the very last thing they need is the additional dose of Tory austerity coming their way?

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, I absolutely agree with Jack Sargeant, and I agree with his analysis as well, because we have a new administration in Westminster, but we absolutely don't have a clean slate, because the Prime Minister and the Chancellor's fingerprints are all over the economic crisis that we're all facing at the moment. And Jack Sargeant is right again; it's his constituents who are feeling the pain. They'll be feeling it through the increases in their mortgage payments, and they'll be feeling it if benefits don't rise in line with inflation. So, I think that absolutely the last thing that we need is further austerity at this time, but whether or not the UK Government is even hearing that is another thing entirely.

And finally, question 9. Joyce Watson.

Post-EU Funding Arrangements

Joyce Watson AC: 9. What discussions has the Minister had with the UK Government regarding post-EU funding arrangements? OQ58617

Rebecca Evans AC: The UK Government has bypassed the Welsh Government and this Senedd with post-EU funding. The impact of their flawed schemes and a £1.1 billion funding cut is seriously impacting on a range of sectors, and jobs and growth. I have repeatedly raised this with UK Ministers and I'll continue to do so.

Joyce Watson AC: The Senedd's Finance Committee reported this month that Wales is in danger of losing out financially if the UK Government fails to co-operate with the Welsh Government on post-EU funding. That's despite repeated Tory promises that Wales would receive not a penny less as a result of Brexit. Clearly, we must have that co-operation from the UK Government and the Tories must honour their pledge. But do you agree with me, Minister, that Wales is already losing out? The former Governor of the Bank of England has pointed out that in 2016 the British economy was 90 per cent the size of Germany's. It is now less than 70 per cent. And analysis by the Economic and Social Research Institute calculates that Brexit has led to a 16 per cent drop in trade from the UK to the EU. So, as well as a fair funding settlement for Wales, do you agree with me that we need urgently to rebuild Britain's economic ties with our biggest trading partner and reduce barriers to trade?

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, I do agree with those points, because in my view the impact of Brexit has been very much camouflaged by the pandemic and now by the cost-of-living crisis. I think that the example that you've given, which compares our position with Germany, really does spell out the damage that has been done by Brexit and that will continue to be done unless the UK Government takes a different approach to trading with our most important trading partners.
I think the issue around replacement EU funding, as well, is an important one. We were promised that we wouldn't be a penny worse off. Well, that's true; we're £1.1 billion worse off in terms of the lack of available European funding. The shared prosperity fund has just been an abject failure in terms of being a replacement. As well as having that funding gap, no funding has reached Wales yet, whereas of course if we were still in the EU those EU programmes would have already started in January 2021. And not only that; they would have been programmes over a number of years, which would have allowed more strategic deployment of that funding, rather than funding small pet projects across Wales, decided by Ministers in Westminster. [Interruption.] I hear the Conservatives behind me, but I find it quite hilarious that anybody is still willing to defend the current situation, where we are worse off financially, and also our reputation across the world has been damaged, probably irreparably for some time, by the Conservative Party.

I thank the Minister for finance.

2. Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs, North Wales and Trefnydd

The next item is questions to the Minister for rural affairs and north Wales. The first question is from Samuel Kurtz.

Responsible Dog Ownership

Samuel Kurtz MS: 1. What support is the Welsh Government providing to encourage responsible dog ownership? OQ58618

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Welsh Government's code of practice for the welfare of dogs informs owners of their obligations relating to controlling their dogs and the governing pieces of legislation, of which there are many. We are working with the UK Government on introducing further safeguards through the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Minister. I recently had the opportunity, and the pleasure, indeed, to visit Dogs Trust Cymru at their state-of-the-art rehoming centre here in Cardiff Bay. The team do a marvellous job of rehabilitating, reassuring and rehoming the dogs, which, for a variety of reasons have been left unwanted by their previous owners. Whilst at the centre, I met several good dogs that had been, sadly, abused and suffered mistreatment. Indeed, another charity, the RSPCA, have long called for their investigation and prosecution activities to be placed on a formal basis, which would empower front-line officers to intervene sooner, reducing the reliance on local authorities and police forces. Given this, can I urge you to consider this proposal so that our much-loved family pets receive intervention before the worst-case scenario occurs? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, absolutely, this is something that we are considering. I've had several meetings with the RSPCA and officials have also met with them. We've been looking at examples where other countries have had those powers with their third sector. Just to say I absolutely agree with you around Dogs Trust Cymru; it's one of my favourite places to visit.

Bird Flu

Gareth Davies AS: 2. What is the Welsh Government's plan to reduce the risk of bird flu cases in Denbighshire? OQ58600

Lesley Griffiths AC: On 17 October, the Welsh Government, along with other UK administrations, introduced an avian influenza prevention zone. This applies to all of Wales and places legal obligations on bird keepers to follow strict biosecurity measures. Good biosecurity is the best form of defence for preventing AI in kept birds.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much for that answer, Minister. I'm sure you're more than aware of the risks bird flu poses, and I welcome the action from the Welsh Government to stop the spread by imposing the 10 km surveillance zone around the infected premises. As we saw with COVID, immediate and tough action early on can ensure that the problem does not get worse, and I call on the Welsh Government to work closely with the UK Government to tackle this outbreak head on. Although bird flu affecting humans is rare, the damage it can do to the supply chain of poultry can add to the inflation of the prices of eggs and chicken at a time when the cost of these products is increasing due to cost-of-living pressures. Therefore, what is the Minister doing to ensure that bird flu does not spread across Wales, to ensure that the supply of poultry is not disrupted and that prices do not increase further for my constituents in Denbighshire?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I should probably just say at the outset that there have been no cases of AI in kept birds in Denbighshire during the 2021-22 period or, indeed, in the current 2022-23 outbreak period, but it has been relentless across the UK. We have not had a break at all. Normally, you do get a bit of respite in the summer months, but we have absolutely not had any break at all. I can assure you I work very closely with the UK Government in relation to this. In fact, I wrote to George Eustice, back in February or March of this year, when we saw some significant outbreaks in, I think, Lincolnshire in England, which I was particularly concerned about and wondered if there was something we could do to work together. Clearly, we've had another two DEFRA Secretaries of State since that time, but it is something that I will be raising immediately with the new Secretary of State, because I do think it is something that we need to look at across the UK.
You mentioned public health, and clearly the risk to public health from the virus is very low, but it does have an impact and it has an impact also on free range, for instance, when we've had to house birds. So, I can absolutely assure Members that this is something that daily we are looking at.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservatives' spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Minister, can I firstly begin by paying tribute to Christianne Glossop, who served as Wales's chief veterinary officer for 17 years before standing down earlier this month? She has served under a number of rural affairs Ministers, and I'm sure that you will join me in putting our gratitude for her service on the record and wishing her the very best for the future. I'd also like to refer Members to my register of interests.
Two weeks ago, in debating the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee's nitrate vulnerable zones report, I asked several questions that did not receive an answer, specifically surrounding the impact of TB breakdown incidents. Given this, can I seek clarification that farmers with movement restrictions will be permitted to exceed the 170 kg per hectare nitrate limit? As you will know, farmers under TB restrictions are unable to move cattle, meaning stock numbers will inevitably increase, thus seeing the farmer contravening your water regulations. Obeying one set of rules could see them failing another. Are there any dispensations for breakdown herds, or is this something to be considered in the licensing consultation for the 250 kg per hectare derogation? And on the consultation, when are we expecting to see it open, as time is marching on?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I would like to thank the Member for his kind words about Christianne Glossop leaving her post as Wales’s first chief veterinary officer after 17 years. She’ll certainly have big boots to fill. I know she will be very pleased to have heard your comments.
In relation to the question around farms that are in TB breakdown, this is something that we are considering, and will be considered in the scheme that we will be bringing forward. The consultation will be launched next month. We are still working with Plaid Cymru as part of the co-operation agreement to get that consultation together.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I’m grateful for that. Secondly, in scrutinising the agriculture Bill, very same committee that I sit on have taken evidence from farming unions and environmental non-governmental organisations, where despite there being differences of opinion, there is a general consensus and agreement. But having taken evidence from the Tenant Farmers Association and the Mynydd Eglwysilan, Mynydd Meio and Craig Evan Leyshon Commoners Association, there is a deep frustration that there is limited reference to tenant farmers and common land in the agriculture Bill itself. Whilst a tenancy working group has been established, can you commit to creating a working group for common land, to ensure that those who farm and enjoy common land, which makes up nearly 10 per cent of Wales’s landmass, can contribute and shape the agriculture Bill?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think it’s been very good to see not just, as you referred to, the farming unions and the ENGOs, but the cross-party approval, if you like, of the way that the agriculture Bill has begun. I know there will be amendments brought forward, and again, we’re working with Plaid Cymru as part of the co-operation agreement to bring forward some Government amendments at the next stage.
Tenant farmers is a really important part; you’ll know a great number of our farmers are tenant farmers here in Wales. That was part of the reason for bringing the working group together. Because certainly, my discussions with them over the past six years as we’ve been bringing both the sustainable farming scheme forward and the agriculture Bill is that tenant farmers have very different and specific concerns around it.
In relation to common land, we haven’t thought about having a specific group, but it’s certainly something I can look at. I’m not saying I will bring forward another group, but I think, again, there are issues that are very specific to common land, and I’d be very happy to make sure my officials talk to people if they think they have anything that hasn’t been considered already by us.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I would say to you and your officials that the evidence given by the Member representing common land at the committee last week was exceptional. I would really urge you and your team to look at that as a starting point as to the concerns of those linked with common land.
Finally, Minister, I’m sure that you share my joy in seeing the growth of Wales’s food and drink manufacturing sector, with a 2021 turnover that increased by 10.2 per cent, from £4.9 billion to £5.4 billion. Despite the disruption of the pandemic, the sector has ploughed on, growing and helping local economies thrive and create new jobs for local people. I also recently attended an event in Downing Street to mark the export of Welsh and British lamb, following a 30-year hiatus, to the United States of America, the first shipment coming from Dunbiain Llanybydder in Carmarthenshire—Welsh lamb back on the menu in America. The NFU’sambition is for UK agri-food exports grow by 30 per cent by the end of the decade. Do you share this ambition, and if so, what provision exists within the agriculture Bill to ensure Welsh food and drink exports continue to grow?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I don’t think there’s any greater cheerleader than me for the Welsh food and drink producers that we have. I’ve made sure whilst I’ve been in portfolio that we’ve always put them absolutely at the fore. We’ve just been in SIAL in Paris, and last night there was an event in Qatar, ahead of the world cup, to make sure that people are aware of Welsh food and drink there also.
In relation to your specific question around the US, I was very pleased to see that we’re able now to export Welsh lamb to the US for the first time for 30 years. Unfortunately, it’s five years, probably, later than we would have wanted. We were nearly there when Donald Trump became President, so it’s great that we’ve managed to do it now. I work very closely with, as you know, and support, Hybu Cig Cymru to make sure they are working with the US to ensure that we absolutely make the maximum benefit of ensuring our Welsh lamb is everywhere in America, I think it’s fair to say. Obviously, the agriculture Bill has food absolutely at the heart of it—sustainable food production as well. So, this is all-encompassing for every meat, and for all our Welsh food and drink.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Diolch, Llywydd. The new ministerial advisory group for Welsh fisheries met for the first time in July. Among the priorities discussed was the fisheries funding scheme—the replacement for the EU fisheries fund. But there are concerns that the proposals for a Welsh fisheries funding scheme fall short of the previous European maritime fisheries fund scheme and the equivalent fisheries and shellfish scheme in England. The Welsh fisheries funding scheme in only in development and is already behind England in terms of implementation. Fisheries and aquaculture businesses are therefore at a disadvantage here and there are further concerns that the Welsh fisheries funding scheme does not reflect the targeted support and interventions required to achieve the statutory objectives of the UK Fisheries Act 2020.
The current proposals offer revenue funds thereby limiting the scope for Welsh fisher people and other producers of seafood to contribute to the requirements that effectively enable transition to meet the fisheries Act objectives and wider net-zero commitments. Does the Minister recognise these concerns, and how will she ensure that the Welsh fisheries funding scheme directs the necessary targeted support and interventions required to achieve the statutory objectives of the UK Fisheries Act 2020?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, ensuring the replacement to the EMFF is correct, is appropriate, is pertinent—it goes where we need it to go. It's one of the reasons why I changed the format of the ministerial advisory group. I thought that was really important to make sure—. The previous one had been in being for about 10 years and obviously, the world has changed and I thought it was really important that we had a group that would advise me and officials on how we replace the EMFF.
As you say, the group did meet on 14 July. The next meeting is next month. I will make sure that the complaints or issues that you've just raised with me are considered, if they're not being considered, although I think it's very unlikely that the replacement for the EMFF is not on the agenda, but I will ensure that it is. Because you are right: it needs to be done in the most appropriate way. But for me, what's really important—it's a bit like the sustainable farming scheme—is that we need to do it in co-production with our fishers and with the wider sector. And, absolutely, the reason to have that ministerial advisory group is to make sure that everybody can contribute.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for the response. Well, carrying on on the theme of funding for fishing and aquaculture, the UK seafood fund has funds of £100 million under three pillars: science and innovation, infrastructure, skills and training. The Welsh fisheries funding scheme rightly highlights the need to maximise leverage of the £100 million UK seafood fund into Wales. In principle, this sounds sensible, however in practice, neither fisher people in Wales nor the fishing representative bodies are equipped to navigate or cash-flow the UK fund's processes. So, it's unlikely that the sector will benefit from it. Wales should benefit from £8 million of this UK fund, which, combined with the Welsh funds of £6.2 million, would be transformational for the Welsh seafood offer and the whole supply chain.
The science and innovation pillar of the UK fund certainly provides an opportunity for the fishing sector, however, other pillars are limited to ports, harbours and processing facilities and training organisations, leaving little for our catching sector. It's difficult to see how the Welsh scheme would lever any funding from the UKSF pillars. The Welsh seafood industry could be seriously disadvantaged by barriers to accessing the UKSF, which could result in unspent funds reverting to the Treasury or other administrations. So, does the Minister agree with the concerns expressed by the sector and, if so, how will the Welsh Government help ensure that the Welsh fishing sector can maximise the benefits of available funding under the UKSF?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I absolutely recognise that, and those concerns were raised with me very early on—probably this time last year, when the UK Government announced their seafood scheme. I think it's really confusing, because what would have been better is if they'd just given us our share of the funding that we were entitled to and we could decide what we did with that funding and how we worked with the sector to allocate that funding. So, I think it did create a lot of confusion at the outset. So, what we've done is agree an approach on how we access that UK Government funding so that our fishers don't miss out on that funding, and that work is being undertaken at the moment.

The Sustainable Farming Scheme

James Evans MS: 3. How will the new sustainable farming scheme benefit young tenant farmers in Brecon and Radnorshire? OQ58614

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The sustainable farming scheme has been designed to reward all types of farmers, including tenant farmers who manage the land, to deliver environmental outcomes alongside the sustainable production of food. This will ensure that we have a sustainable and resilient agricultural sector for future generations.

James Evans MS: Thank you for that, Minister. Many young tenant farmers in my constituency believe that the proposals as currently drafted within the sustainable farming scheme are still very much leaned towards land ownership. Tenants, usually young farming families on the first rung of the farming ladder, have to deal with different types of landlords, from the local farmer who's retired, up to the big organisations, like the National Trust. Many young farmers rent land, whether that's on grazing agreements or farm business tenancies, and the tenants are the ones who carry the financial business risks on the land. So, Minister, are you content that the proposals set out in the sustainable farming scheme allow tenant farmers to enter that on the same level as land owners, and that the scheme protects young, active tenant farmers and their families from potential evictions by some landlords, so that they can offset their carbon and meet environmental targets?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I am, but I will point out that we're still looking at designing the sustainable farming scheme. The survey is still open until 21 November, so please do encourage all of your colleagues to make sure that they complete the survey and let us hear their views. I've said all along that if it doesn't work for tenant farmers, it won't work for anybody, because they are just as important as land farmers, as you say; they make up a third of our land here in Wales, so it's really important. And I've been very, very clear the scheme must work for them.
You mentioned young farmers in particular, and the reason that we're bringing forward the support in a different way to how it was when we were in the European Union is because we know that our next generation of farmers are going to be farming in a very much tougher climates and conditions than we are now. But I do want to continue to work with tenant farmers—I want to make that very clear. And you will have heard me say in an earlier answer to one of our colleagues that we have got the tenancy working group, specifically to look at how the actions—. So, you'll be aware of the pyramid of actions that we have in the sustainable farming scheme. It's really important that all actions work for tenant farmers, just in the same way as those who own the land.

Greyhound Racing

Luke Fletcher AS: 4. Will the Minister provide an update on the Government's position on greyhound racing? OQ58630

Delyth Jewell AC: 5. What progress has the Welsh Government made in relation to its stated intention to consider regulating greyhound racing? OQ58627

Lesley Griffiths AC: Llywydd, I understand that you've given permission for questions 4 and 5 to be grouped. I have made no secret about my desire to address concerns relating to the welfare of racing greyhounds in Wales. Our animal welfare plan sets out how we will consider introducing further measures. I look forward to the outcome of the recent petition, currently being considered by the Petitions Committee.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for that response, Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: I would like to thank the Minister as well for her continued engagement on this issue. No doubt, the Minister is aware of the current plans in Caerphilly to change the independent track there to a Greyhound Board of Great Britain-regulated one. A concern I have, which is shared by other Members in the Chamber, as well as Hope Rescue, Greyhound Rescue Wales, Dogs Trust, Blue Cross and the RSPCA, is that regulation, especially if it's a copy-and-paste job from what we have in England, will not stop the injuries and deaths. We know, for example, that, between 2018 and 2021, 2,000 dogs died, and a further 18,000 were injured on licensed tracks. What I and others are looking to understand is where the Government is leaning right now—is it towards regulation, or is it to a ban?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I appreciate you also keeping the pressure on in relation to this issue, and I look forward to meeting you and Jane Dodds, I think it's the week after recess, to discuss the situation in more detail. I am aware, obviously, of the plans of the one greyhound track that we still have here in Wales. As you know, I wrote to the owner back in March, and haven't received a response. This week, I've written to the new manager, to raise some questions there, and also to ask for a meeting with him. Obviously, there is a planning application before Caerphilly County Borough Council, and that will be a matter for them to look at, and, obviously, I can't comment in relation to that.
As you know, as part of our animal welfare plan, which I published a year ago—we're coming up to the first anniversary of that—which set out what we're going to do in relation to animal health and welfare over the term of this Government, we were looking at licensing activities involving animals, and that includes racing greyhounds. As I say in my answer to you, I'm aware that there is a petition—sorry, I was looking for the Chair—in front of the Petitions Committee; I understand that it's got 35,000 signatures at the current time. So, you can see the strength of feeling amongst people in relation to that, but, obviously, as a Government, we will have a look at that. So, I think, while it's awaiting a response from the Petitions Committee, it's not really appropriate to comment any further.

Delyth Jewell AC: Greyhound racing is an issue that concerns lots of my constituents. I've lost count of the number of e-mails that I've received about the plans to expand the only track in Wales in Caerphilly county. As you've said, Minister, 35,000 people—more than that—have signed a petition calling for a ban. The concerns they've raised include the fact that hundreds of greyhounds die in Britain every year due to the practice. Thousands get injuries that lead to amputations. The absence of a qualified vet at the track has the potential to cause unnecessary suffering, and thousands of dogs have to be rehomed every year, with the costs covered by charities and the public.
You said, Minister, after your appointment, that you would prioritise this issue early in the Senedd term, and I've been listening to what you've said to my colleague, Luke Fletcher. What action are you taking to persuade the council about the need to uphold Welsh Government commitments to animal welfare as part of the planning process, and can you confirm that if you're not satisfied that the welfare of dogs is being prioritised, you will be willing to take direct action to protect them?

Lesley Griffiths AC: The planning application is a matter for Caerphilly County Borough Council. It would not be right for me, or any other Welsh Minister, to interfere. I think what is really important—and this is what I've sought assurance from Caerphilly council around—is that the unannounced inspections are continued. And I know, to date, in between February 2020 and August of this year, there have been eight unannounced inspections, and I think it's really important that they continue.I know that, on occasion, vets have also gone along to those unannounced inspections, and I think it is really important that the local authority continues to do that, and that any issues of concern are obviously raised and dealt with.
But I think that you do raise a very important point, and you can see from your own postbag as a Member of the Senedd—and we said that the Petitions Committee have had 35,000 signatures—the strength of feeling about this issue. I've always had my concerns, especially for the welfare of the dogs, and the injuries and the suffering they can and do sustain. And, sometimes, there are very grave consequences. So, as I say, it is something that we're looking at very closely, and we will see what comes forward from the Petitions Committee as well.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Minister, you don't need me to remind you that, in Great Britain, over 2,000 greyhounds died and nearly 18,000 injuries occurred between 2018 and 2021. In 2021, there were 4,422 injuries on licensed tracks, 307 deaths in Great Britain, and 39 per cent of those were at the track. We've mentioned the one independent racing track. Since April 2018, Hope Rescue and their rescue partners have taken in almost 200. You yourself have mentioned how you feel for these dogs. Now, enough is enough. I would say that there's cross-party support for this. If I was Minister, I wouldn't be having a member of the opposition asking me: why have you not done anything up until now? Thirty-five thousand on the petition—that's a large number of people across Wales. Enough of this cruelty.Will you now go forward and implement a ban? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, if you were Minister, you would recognise that you can't just go around banning things; you have to have evidence and you have to have consultations, and this is one of the things that we are looking at. You'll be aware of the petition. Having been Chair yourself, you'll be aware of the process that we go through with that. You will have read, I'm sure, the animal welfare plan that does include the licensing of activities, and that does include racing greyhounds.
I do have, and certainly, my officials keep in very close contact with Caerphilly County Borough Council around inspections. I've met with the chief executive of the Greyhound Board of Great Britain. I'm trying to get a meeting with both the owner and the manager of Valley racetrack. I think I've written to the owner twice, and I haven't had the courtesy of a response. So, please be assured that I am continuing to do all that I can within the restrictions that are also placed on me.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I must declare an interest. As you know, I own a rescue greyhound myself—10-year-old Arthur, who we've had for just over two years now. Arthur could not be rehomed because of his high levels of anxiety. Arthur came to us with significant injuries; he has a neck injury from falling at the racetrack, and we are now seeing, sadly, his back legs giving way, which means that Arthur will not be with us for very long, and that is due, probably in a large part, to the cruelty he experienced at the racetrack.
We know that the Greyhound Board of Great Britain want to take over Valley racetrack. GBGB, last year—this year, sorry—. In July, many of us were at the Royal Welsh Show. Temperatures at the Royal Welsh Show were—what were they—25, 28 degrees C. In that week, GBGB raced on two tracks; they forced the dogs in that heat to race. GBGB are not interested in looking after their dogs; they are cruel to their dogs through this process. So, I would appeal to you, what is it that is stopping the Welsh Government from banning greyhound racing, as they have done fantastically with snares and glue traps? Let's show the world what we can do. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I certainly look forward to my photographs that you'll send me of Arthur, and I'm sorry to hear of his condition deteriorating, because, as you say, it's not just the deaths, is it, but it's the injuries that these animals sustain. I think I've answered part of your question in my answer to Janet Finch-Saunders. There is a process that we have to go through. We are committed to licensing, but, clearly, as more and more concerns come before me—. And I'm very sorry to hear—. It was actually 38 degrees C the week of the Royal Welsh Show, so you can see, if you're forcing dogs to run in that heat, it's just completely inappropriate.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, these gentle, sensitive animals deserve our best protection, which is why both the Welsh and UK Governments must work together to protect and safeguard the welfare of these loving animals. The UK Government recently introduced the Animal Welfare (Sentience) Act 2022, which will ensure that all policy decisions are to be considered regarding the impact on the welfare of animals as sentient beings. What action are you taking to ensure that the Welsh Government considers the impact its policies are having on sentient animals like greyhounds? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, officials have been working very closely with the UK Government on this piece of legislation. We absolutely recognise that animals are sentient beings, and I don't think I can really answer in any more detail to previous answers.

Community Green Spaces

Rhys ab Owen AS: 6. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change to ensure that new housing developments have community green spaces? OQ58602

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I have regular discussions with all Cabinet colleagues about matters relating to my portfolio. The Minister for Climate Change is committed to the promotion of quality places and for new housing developments to have adequate infrastructure, including green spaces.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you, Minister. I saw recently an announcement in Madrid that they were going to have open, green spaces around that city, and a local campaigner, Steffan Webb, is trying to do something similar here. We have great parks in Cardiff, but the vast majority were opened in the Victorian era. It is possible to create new parks in Cardiff, in places like St Fagans and St Mellons, and this would create beautiful places for local people, and it would ensure a green belt around the city, and it would also provide a natural protection against floods. How, Minister, can you collaborate with others to ensure that we do have new parks in the twenty-first century in Cardiff?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I always think that Cardiff is a very green city. As you say, there are many beautiful parks here. I haven't had any discussions around any local authority coming to me in relation to new parks since this, obviously, came back into my portfolio, but certainly we would be very keen to look at the merits of any proposal that came forward.

Joel James MS: Minister, as you are no doubt aware, a new sewage pumping station has been proposed on the community green space of Hailey park in Cardiff in order to service the needs of the new Plasdŵr development. Proposals have come about because the developers of the new housing estate have failed to make adequate provision, and the proposals have met with fierce opposition from local groups, such as YGC Rebel Mams, who have been forced to fundraise over £50,000 to take the local authority to judicial review, all because they want to protect the limited green spaces that they have available to them for their children and for their community, and because they feel that they shouldn't be forced to pick up the slack for Cardiff Council's inability to work with developers to plan out the needs of new housing estates. Minister, green spaces in Cardiff are at a premium, and Cardiff Council is determined with all its might to remove them whenever and wherever possible in the face of fierce resistance from residents who know that these spaces will be lost to them forever. So, I ask, Minister, will the Welsh Government commit to encouraging Cardiff Council not to lease the land at Hailey park to Welsh Water so that sewage works can be stopped, and will you offer a commitment that the Minister for Climate Change will work with local authorities to better plan developments, which in turn should stop them from removing the last of our community green spaces in our urban areas? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: You would have to raise that directly with the Minister for Climate Change. Obviously, the issue you refer to is a matter for Cardiff Council; they are the local planning authority. It wouldn't be appropriate for any Welsh Minister to comment on the merits of any proposal, for instance, as it could come before Welsh Ministers at some point in the future.

Bird Flu

Cefin Campbell MS: 7. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's measures to tackle the spread of bird flu in Mid and West Wales? OQ58624

Lesley Griffiths AC: When avian influenza is confirmed at any premises in Wales, stringent disease control measures are immediately put in place to stop further spread. The Welsh Government introduced an avian influenza prevention zone on 17 October, which makes it a mandatory requirement for bird keepers to follow strict biosecurity measures.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you very much. Those measures are, of course, welcome because the current strain of avian influenza is recognised as the worst to have affected the UK, with the recent news in Norfolk that some 0.5 million chickens have been destroyed a result of the inflection, and concern in the industry that this will have an effect on the number of turkeys available for Christmas.
But, in addition to the agricultural sector, the spread of avian influenza and the impact on wildlife can be very serious, with some 10,000 sea geese having been killed by the disease last year as they migrated from the Arctic to the UK. We've recently heard about the impact of this oncormorants on Grassholm in Pembrokeshire. We know of the importance of the west Wales coast in terms of seabirds and important nature reserves. So, with concerns about the spread this winter and the relationship between the agriculture sector and wildlife, can the Minister provide an assurance that efforts and resources to tackle bird flu in the agriculture sector go hand in hand with steps to safeguard our wildlife too?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, absolutely, and I work very closely with the Minister for Climate Change in relation to this issue as well. She published the mitigation strategy for avian influenza in wild birds in England and Wales back in August, I think it was, and that was to enable conservation charities and land managers— obviously, that includes the agricultural sector—to take an effective and consistent response to AI in wild birds.

Paul Davies AC: As I understand it, there has been a case of avian influenza in my constituency, and it's crucial, therefore, that everything is done to stop the disease spreading further across Pembrokeshire and indeed across the rest of Wales. Of course, it's vital that the Welsh Government works collaboratively with other Governments across the UK on this matter. Therefore, can the Minister update us on the latest discussions that the Welsh Government has had with other UK Governments regarding avian influenza outbreaks in the UK, and what more can be done to monitor this specific disease across the UK because, as you're aware, diseases, of course, naturally don't recognise boundaries?

Lesley Griffiths AC: You may have heard me say in an earlier answer to Gareth Davies that it is very important we work with other UK administrations, particularly the UK Government. As I said, we were working on this with George Eustice back at the beginning of the year. Unfortunately, the DEFRA Secretary of State who just left Government yesterday, I didn't meet with, but I will certainly be writing to Thérèse Coffey on this issue. Biosecurity is the most important defence we have in relation to avian influenza. Certainly, some of the outbreaks we've seen, and I mentioned the ones in Lincolnshire, were all in big premises at the start of the year, so we were all very concerned about that biosecurity element of it. So, if there's any message I can give, because it's clearly a massive issue where we haven't had any break at all really—we've continued to have new cases of AI throughout the summer, and the new counting season starts on 1 October, and we've just gone straight into that—. So, I think that message is really important, but it is a very serious point that we have to work together, because, as you say, birds fly; they don't see those boundaries and it's so easy for that disease to transmit, and, clearly, in wild birds as well. I mentioned the work that the Minister for Climate Change is doing around that, but I am hoping we'll have an inter-ministerial group as a matter of urgency, and it will be something that I will raise, and I'm very happy to report back to Members.

Post-common Agricultural Policy Financial Support

Hefin David AC: 8. Will the Minister provide an update on post-common agricultural policy financial support for Welsh farmers? OQ58611

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. In July, I published an outline of the proposed sustainable farming scheme. The scheme's proposals signify a major change in the way Welsh farmers will be supported. The scheme will be key in supporting Welsh farmers to play a leading role in delivering a more resilient environment and a more resilient rural economy.

Hefin David AC: My question arises, as some other questions have today, from the scrutiny we're doing of the Wales agriculture Bill in committee. Particularly, one of the issues that were raised last week was funding for the supply chain in addition to that directly targeted at farmers, and we know that the supply chain is diverse—it includes abattoirs, meat packers, food and drink processes right to the customer. What we were asking our witnesses about, and what, perhaps, I'd like the Minister to comment on today, is how that funding will be spread across that supply chain, and how she will ensure that, post CAP, that funding won't be spread too thinly and will be targeted in the right places.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think I was certainly asked about that, I think it was Sam Kurtz who asked me about that in the committee, and it is a very important point. But you'll appreciate at the moment I don't even know what my budget is, so it's very difficult to give you any assurances. It is important that the money that we have is directed to farmers, but, of course, the ancillary activities that we refer to will be part of that supply chain, and as we look at the actions within the sustainable farming scheme. I suppose it's a bit like pillar 1 and pillar 2 now; we will look at how we allocate that funding. But, as I say, it's just too early at the moment, because we don't know what our budget is, to say how we can allocate it. For me, the person that has to ultimately benefit is the active farmer.

Peter Fox AS: Sam Kurtz and James Evans have already talked about the tenant situation, and I must draw Members' attention to my interests as I am an active farmer. But Sam also mentioned common land, and I'd just like to push a little further on that, because common land is currently an eligible area for the purpose of the basic payment scheme, which is vital to many businesses across Wales. Farmers are asking, 'Will common land be included in the universal tier of the new scheme, recognising that it will not be possible for common right holders to deliver many of the proposed universal actions on common land?' Minister, I was just wondering what steps the Welsh Government is taking to ensure that the new scheme continues to promote active management of common land through grazing and other sustainable agricultural measures.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I go back to what I was saying in an earlier answer: we are still in the co-design phase of the sustainable farming scheme, so now is the time to make sure everybody puts their views forward. I mentioned the survey—that's open till 21 November. Please ask anybody who contacts you with concerns to ensure they complete the survey.
We have the three tiers, as you say, and the universal tier, I think we can all safely assume, will be the biggest tier of the three. So, it's absolutely vital that anybody who was part of the basic payment scheme—. I want as many farmers as possible to be able to access the sustainable farming scheme, and, obviously, that includes farmers on common land.

The Sustainable Farming Scheme

John Griffiths AC: 9. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of the Welsh Government's sustainable farming scheme on the Gwent levels? OQ58623

Lesley Griffiths AC: The proposed sustainable farming scheme will support farmers and other land managers to work together to deliver nature-based solutions at a landscape level. The Gwent levels are a great example where the adoption of sustainable land management practices can support resilient farm businesses and improve the environment for people and wildlife.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you very much, Minister, for the recognition of the value of what's been happening on the Gwent levels. Last month, I was pleased to speak at the Sustaining the Gwent Levels conference in Redwick, a small and historic village in the Newport East area. The Gwent levels, of course, was reclaimed from the sea in Roman times, and has a unique and historic watercourse system that contains a diverse range of habitats, including the water vole at Magor marsh. It also has a lot of productive farmland. It's important we work closely with farmers and other organisations on the levels to produce the food needed, restore nature, tackle climate change and improve water quality. This includes the restoration of the reens, willow pollarding, orchard restoration, but also restoring species-rich grasslands and creating herbal leys. Minister, can you say how the Welsh Government's sustainable farming scheme will help achieve these goals?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I would imagine the collaborative tier—. We've just been referring to the three tiers of the sustainable farming scheme, and I would assume that the collaborative layer of the scheme will be able to offer support to projects at a landscape level at the Gwent levels, as you just referred to, or within the supply chain, so that they can deliver on those local and national priorities that you've just referred to. I know we are—well, you as chair of the Gwent levels working group are—looking at a strategic enhancement plan, which I think will be available in the new year, and then we will come out of the co-design phase. I think it's really important that we look at that plan to see how it will fit into the scheme.

And finally, question 10, Vikki Howells.

Animal Welfare Standards

Vikki Howells AC: 10. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's work to improve animal welfare standards? OQ58604

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Our priorities for animal welfare are set out in our animal welfare plan for Wales. It includes a timetable for the delivery of key actions against our four animal welfare programme for government commitments, and actions for our other animal welfare priorities.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. The Welsh Government's commitment to regulating animal welfare establishments is very welcome and has received support from animal welfare organisations to help ensure the adoption of best practice. The regulation of these establishments is also important, as it closes a loophole in Lucy's law that third party sellers can exploit. Given the importance of this regulation, are you able to provide any updates on its progress?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I can't give you any specific update, because, as you know, we are working with key stakeholders at the moment to develop a document within the animal welfare plan to look at all existing animal welfare focused licensing legislation—as you can imagine, that's quite a significant piece of work, but what that will do is gauge where the gaps are—and then set out proposals for the licensing amendments going forward. There will be public consultation as necessary and, obviously, I don't want to pre-empt the results of that exercise.

I thank the Minister.

And as has been said already by both Samuel Kurtz and the Minister, may I also add my thanks to the chief veterinary officer as she moves on from her role? As a one-time rural affairs Minister myself, I know exactly of the 100 per cent commitment that Christianne Glossop showed to her role, but also, of course, in working across political parties and with committees and the Senedd as a whole, and I'm sure, on behalf of the Senedd, that we wish her well with whatever comes next, because I'm sure there's much to come.

So, thank you to Christianne Glossop for her excellent work.

3. Topical Questions

We'll move now to topical questions, and today's question is from Sioned Williams and is to be answered by the Trefnydd. Sioned Williams.

Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council's Education Plans

Sioned Williams MS: 1. Will the Government make a statement following the High Court ruling on Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council's education plans? TQ670

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. There is a constituency link for the Minister for Education and Welsh Language, so I am responding on behalf of the Welsh Government. I understand the council has noted the court's judgment in respect of the Swansea valley proposal and are considering their next steps. The council has a period of time to decide if it will appeal, so any further consideration needs to await the council's decision.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you. Following a request for a judicial review from Rhieni dros Addysg Gymraeg, the High Court ruled that the decision of Neath Port Talbot Council to open a huge English-medium school in Pontardawe was unlawful because they failed to assess its impact on the Welsh language and particularly on Welsh-medium education. The ruling has been described as being of national importance by Gwion Lewis, the barrister who brought the case forward, because it means, according to him, that plans that don't relate directly to the Welsh language and Welsh-medium education will need to assess their impact on the Welsh language. Whilst the ruling is good news for the Tawe valley, it does raise questions on the stance taken by the Welsh Government on the issue.
The Government's response to the case was that it was a matter for the local authority, but, before politicians like me and bodies like RhAG and Dyfodol i'r Iaith drew attention to the issue, in approving the outline business case the Government was clearly content, initially, with the way the consultation was carried out and agreed with what the judge called a misinterpretation of the Government's own policies in terms of school organisation and the 'Cymraeg 2050' policy.
I would, therefore, like to ask the Government to look into the fact that there wasn't an understanding in the education department of its own policies and to ensure that practical, cross-departmental support is available for the 'Cymraeg 2050' policy. How will the Government ensure that all of the Welsh in education strategic plans and the capital programmes include appropriate consideration of the impact of all developments on the Welsh language and also secure an understanding and capacity within local authorities in terms of planning the growth of the Welsh language across all departments?
Finally, in order to support the change of direction required in this particular case, will the Government commit to consider allocating the funding pledged to this flawed and damaging proposal to plan alternative provision that wouldn't damage the Welsh language in such a way, as long as those plans meet the needs of the sustainable learning communities programme?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, going forward, obviously, the Minister for Education and Welsh Language's officials will work with the local authority. They will have to, obviously, consider what comes forward from Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council. As I say, the next thing is for them, obviously, to respond. My understanding is that officials did look at and consider WESP plans in the way that you suggested. In relation to funding, I think the Welsh Government have made it very clear to the local authority that, should the project change, they would, obviously, need to resubmit a business case and then the Minister's officials would again consider it.

Tom Giffard AS: Minister, I think it's important that we stress here that this was due to be a twenty-first century state-of-the-art school with local facilities for children with additional learning needs and a new pool as well, which is much needed in the community. But what must be made clear is the fact that local authorities perhaps need clearer guidance when consulting on issues such as these. This judgment—and it's worth noting that it was on one of the three counts—was that the council had acted unlawfully in, quote,
'failing to consult further after receipt of the Welsh language impact assessmentwith its consultation.'
End quote. So, what we need now is a clearer indication from the council on its next steps, so that it can provide clarity for schools, pupils and parents currently at Alltwen, Llangiwg and Godre'r Graig schools. So, given this ruling could have further implications for other school reorganisations across Wales and twenty-first century schools programmes in other council areas, what assurances can the Welsh Government give that this judgment will not affect future plans in the pipeline elsewhere, and what lessons can be learnt from this judgment on Neath Port Talbot Council?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, as I stated in my answer to Sioned Williams, the next step will be for the council to respond; it's a matter for them, then, to come to Welsh Government with their next steps. I'm sure the Minister—. As I mentioned at the outset of my answer, there is, obviously, a constituency link for the Minister for Education and Welsh Language, so, obviously, if it's something specific to do with the constituency, the First Minister will consider it. But, on your general point around guidance, I'm sure the Minister and his officials will have a look at the guidance to see if there is anything that could have been done to avert this. Whether it will have—. I'm sure that lessons can always be learnt, can't they, from anything like this. And again, I'm sure that officials will consider that.

I thank the Trefnydd.

4. 90-second Statements

The next item is the 90-second statements. There is only one today. Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Having been a Member for a short period of time, I have no doubt that the Members here believe in the great benefits of a multicultural and multifaith society, which is why I'm pleased to be able to illuminate the Chamber on the importance of Diwali here in Wales. Better known as the festival of lights, derived from the SanskritDeepawali, which means 'row of lights', Diwali is known for the brightly burning clay lamps that celebrants line up outside, or, weather dependent, inside, their homes. This year, Diwali began on Monday 24 October. Widely observed amongst more than a billion people from a variety of faiths across India and its diaspora, including Hindus, Jains, Buddhists and Sikhs, and, although each have their own individual beliefs for its origins, the holiday still represents the same symbolic victory of light over darkness, good over evil and knowledge over ignorance.
Day one signifies Dhanteras, which is dedicated to the goddess Lakshmi. Day two—it is believed that, on that day Kali, the goddess of Shakti, or strength, killed the demon Narakasura. Day three is the largest of the five days of Diwali. Day four of Diwali marks the first day of the new year, and day five, the final day, is called Bhai Duj, which celebrates the bond between brothers and sisters. All five days of Diwali are marked by prayer, feasts, fireworks, family gatherings and charitable giving. Whilst the different regions of India and its faiths have different legends of heroic actions of the incarnations, the celebration of Diwali represents the inner light that protects each household and individual from spiritual darkness.
It is such an important celebration for the Hindu community, who are an integral part of all the communities here in Wales, so, on behalf of all the Members of the Welsh Parliament, diwali ki dheron shubh kamnayein, which translates as 'Happy Diwali to everybody celebrating'. Thank you.

Happy Diwali to everyone.

5. Motion to elect an Acting Chair of Plenary Meetings

The next item is the motion to elect an acting Chair of Plenary meetings, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion.

Motion NDM8114 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 6.23A, elects Paul Davies as Acting Chair of Plenary Meetings.

Motion moved.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Formally.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object?

Was that an objection?

Member of the Senedd: No, I was waving to—[Inaudible.]

Oh, okay. Okay. [Laughter.] Perhaps you should consider the timing of the wave for next time. So, just to confirm, there are no objections, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Congratulations to Paul Davies on his election as acting Chair.

6. Motion under Standing Order 26.91 seeking the Senedd's agreement to introduce a Member Bill—Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill

The next item is a motion under Standing Order 26.91 seeking the Senedd's agreement to introduce a Member Bill, the outdoor education (Wales) Bill. I call on Sam Rowlands to move the motion. Sam Rowlands.

Motion NDM8069 Sam Rowlands
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.91:
Agrees that Sam Rowlands MS may introduce a Bill to give effect to the information included in the Explanatory Memorandum published on 17 August 2022 under Standing Order 26.91A.

Motion moved.

Sam Rowlands MS: Diolch Llywydd, and can I first say what an absolute pleasure it is today to seek the Senedd's agreement for me to introduce my Member Bill, the outdoor education (Wales) Bill? As Members will be aware, back in July I was selected from a Members ballot to bring forward a Bill. Clearly, since July not a huge amount has happened in politics in the UK, but I've certainly been very busy, working with representatives of the outdoor education and activity sector, universities, councils, Members of the Senedd, schools and pupils in bringing forward what I think is not only an extremely exciting Bill, but also one that will deliver a range of long-lasting benefits.
Back in July I had the pleasure of publishing a 16-page explanatory memorandum, which looked into the policy objectives of this Bill and the support received for the Bill, along with the financial factors to consider. I'm sure all Members already know this, as I'm sure we've all it read it from back to front; nevertheless Members will be happy to note that I'll discuss the points from the explanatory memorandum through my contribution today, in which I will firstly outline what the Bill is, secondly, I'll outline why outdoor education is so important, I'll explain why this Bill is needed, I'll explain the financial aspects of the Bill as well, and, finally, I'll outline what I believe are the next steps in taking this proposal forward.
So, in short, the Bill will establish a statutory duty on local authorities to ensure that Wales's young people have the opportunity to participate in a week-long, four-nights residential outdoor education visit at some point during their school career. This will be put into practice by ensuring funding is put in place to enable local authorities and schools to deliver these experiences for all our youngsters, which would be, as I say, for at least one week—four nights—at some stage during their school years.
Of course, I'm sure many Members will be thinking: out of all the policy proposals that I could have sought to introduce, why did I choose outdoor education? The main reason behind this is my basic conviction of how important outdoor education is to a child's education and overall development. It's my aspiration, and, I believe, that of many Members of the Senedd, that, regardless of a child's socioeconomic background, additional learning needs, cultural background or geographical location, they should get to enjoy the fantastic and long-lasting benefits that come from outdoor education. In addition to this, I and Members from across the Chamber have worked with the outdoor activity sector through Huw Irranca-Davies's excellent chairmanship of the outdoor activity cross-party group, which helped myself and members of the cross-party group truly understand the benefits of outdoor education. I'm sure many Members of the Senedd will remember outdoor education residential visits that they went on, creating memories, building confidence and preparing ourselves for decades to come. Sadly, I'm also sure that there are Members here who will not have had the chance to have this incredible experience themselves.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Sam Rowlands MS: Indeed, recent Welsh Government-commissioned research, published via Hwb, has outlined that outdoor education has well-established benefits for children and young people in both their physical health and well-being, but also their mental health and well-being. In addition to this, Welsh Government-commissioned research found that outdoor education has exceptional benefits for personal and social learning, cognitive development and appreciation of our environment, and with our climate crisis, this is more important now than ever before.
Along with this, research from across the world has further outlined that if a child experiences these benefits at a young age, they will carry it through for the rest of their life, making a lasting difference. Furthermore, the Curriculum for Wales's health and well-being area of learning and experience contains statements of 'what matters', which place importance on responding to experiences, decision making and social influences. These are all fundamental within outdoor education, as fully realised through an outdoor education residential experience.
I'd now like to move on to why the Bill is needed here in Wales, and what the published research and statistics are telling us. I'd firstly like to put on record my thanks to those schools and organisations through which we currently see outdoor education taking place, with fantastic work being carried out to enable this to happen. The main rationale behind my Bill is that all this good work that schools and organisations are currently doing simply doesn't go far enough, because it's seen as enrichment rather than an essential part of education, with many parts of our communities missing out due to financial constraints, where they live or their family background, and I'll go into that a little bit more shortly.
As Members will be aware, last week, with the help of the outdoor education sector and the Senedd's research team, I produced a statistical paper that briefly outlines what we currently see with those who participate in outdoor education, as, regretfully, there were no official statistics about the number of outdoor education residential visits or how many of our children and young people in Wales are gaining the clear range of benefits that they provide. This statistical paper has surveyed 350 schools across 18 of Wales's local authorities, and working with the Outdoor Education Advisers Panel Cymru, I collected data that shows four key findings.
Firstly, in over a third of Welsh schools, of those children offered the opportunity to participate in outdoor education residential visits, fewer than 75 per cent of children take part. Secondly, 60 per cent of schools surveyed cited financial reasons as the main barrier to participation in outdoor education residential visits. Thirdly, over one in five Welsh schools do not offer a subsidy to those families who are financially constrained. And fourthly, initial research has also suggested that more affluent areas will see more children participate in outdoor education visits, while those in less affluent areas participate less.
Indeed, those survey results found that in Blaenau Gwent, 65 per cent of schools indicated financial constraints as an issue; in Caerphilly, 70 per cent of schools indicated financial constraints as an issue; and in Rhondda Cynon Taf, 75 per cent of schools showed that financial constraints are an issue, whilst in Monmouthshire, it was 45 per cent outlining this as an issue. In addition, during this process, a key thing that struck me is the fact that, regretfully, an outdoor education visit may, in fact, be the only time that some of your youngsters actually have the opportunity to see beyond the communities that they live in, and experience something new.
So, along with my statistical paper, I'm sure avid followers of my Twitter and Facebook pages saw two key articles that I shared this summer in relation to outdoor education. Firstly, new research from Swansea University, published via BBC Wales, found that children in Wales were among the world's least fit, with researchers giving Wales's youngsters an F for fitness. A second BBC article, featuring research from Sport Wales, found that children are doing less sport than they were four years ago, with 36 per cent of children not doing any activities outside of their school physical education lessons, compared with 28 per cent just four years ago. I'm sure all Members from across the Chamber can agree that it's simply not right that a significant proportion of our young people across Wales don't have the chance to participate in something so beneficial, due to either where they're from or their family's financial situation. I believe that we cannot stand back and look at our children becoming unhealthier and our young people not engaging in outdoor activities, and for us to sit here and not to do anything about it is simply not acceptable.
Moving on to the financial costs, which I know Members are keen to understand further, and I think it's only fair that we address this issue as well. The initial research and understanding has shown that this would cost between £9.9 million and £13.6 million to fund, which is around 0.06 per cent of the Welsh Government's total budget. Nevertheless, following the Bill's implementation, I believe we would actually see cost benefits from this Bill, with savings to public services through improved health, well-being, mental health services and education outcomes, along with an enhanced appreciation of the environment. Furthermore, the introduction and support of this Bill would contribute to four key purposes of the Welsh Government's Curriculum for Wales: we would see even more ambitious and capable learners who are ready to learn throughout their lives; we would see enterprising and creative contributors who are ready to play a full part in life and work; we would see more ethical and informed citizens who are ready to be citizens of Wales and the world; and finally, we would see healthier and confident individuals who are ready to lead fulfilling lives as valued members of society.
I'd also like to just update Members as to how this is working in other parts of the United Kingdom. As some will be aware, there's an outdoor education Bill currently working its way through the Scottish Parliament, and it's been extremely useful to talk to colleagues there and understand that there is cross-party support there too for such a proposal. It's also important to outline the support coming from the outdoor education sector when it comes to this Bill, because despite working on this for the last three months, I can't claim at all that I'm an expert, unlike those who are in the outdoor education sector, who live, breathe and work outdoor education day in and day out. And Members will note, as I'm sure they've read the explanatory memorandum, in section 41, the sheer support from leading outdoor organisations across Wales, including Urdd Gobaith Cymru, the Institute for Outdoor Learning, the Wales Council for Outdoor Learning, the Outdoor Education Advisers Panel and Ramblers Cymru. Deputy Presiding Officer, there are a number of organisations that I could go on to list, but there's a huge amount of support out there for this Bill.
I'd also like to express my understanding and reality that a lot more work needs to be done with this Bill. Over the past few months, I and many others have found lots of significant work and data around why the Bill is needed, but there is of course more that needs to be done to understand this fully. And that's why I believe there's a crucial role for opposition and backbench Members of this Senedd to be able to work cross-party to bring forward positive and lasting changes that will complement the work being carried out by the Welsh Government. It's also crucial to note that, by supporting today's motion, it allows me to start the process of working tirelessly over the next year, hand in hand with the outdoor sector, to gain more evidence and data regarding the need for outdoor education residential stays, and consequently present this to the Senedd in a year's time. But it's important to reiterate that today's vote can be used as an opportunity for a backbench and opposition Member to seek to introduce important legislation that will deliver lasting changes and complement the work of the Welsh Government.
So, in closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, I'd like to thank all the organisations and staff who've worked tirelessly in helping me produce the Bill's explanatory memorandum, the statistical paper, along with a summary of the Bill. But I'd also like to thank Members from across the Senedd for taking the time out of their busy schedules to discuss this Bill with me, along with the Minister for education, who I look forward to hearing from later in this debate, and his positive discussions so far. I look forward to Members' contributions to today's motion and welcome discussions and questions regarding my proposals. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I call on the Minister for Education and Welsh Language, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Outdoor learning is a fundamental element in terms of the well-being of our children and young people. It's a way of helping them to keep physically healthy and can help with their mental and emotional well-being too. It allows them to relate to the world around them, giving them an opportunity to experience the wonders of nature. That's why our new curriculum emphasises the role of outdoor learning across the curriculum, in areas such as health and well-being, science and technology, humanities, and the expressive arts. This is all made entirely clear in the statutory guidance that every school must take account of as they develop their curriculum.
It is crucial that children and young people have the experience of outdoor learning throughout their time at school, and for those experiences to be interesting and memorable. Statutory guidance for the Curriculum for Wales does emphasise the importance of the learning environment as a key motivator in the curriculum, and notes that learners of all ages should have valid learning experience indoors and outdoors. The pedagogical principles outlined in the guidance also emphasise the importance of outdoor learning and teaching. There’s a clear expectation, therefore, that learners should enjoy the outdoor space regularly.
Our statutory guidance on ensuring a whole-school approach of looking at emotional and mental well-being also draws attention to the link between physical and mental well-being, the benefits of outdoor learning, and having access to outdoor spaces. I am therefore very eager to work with the Member and others who have an interest in this issue on ways of strengthening, supporting and continuing to develop the contribution that outdoor education makes to the right to learn in Wales, and the development of our children and young people.

Jeremy Miles AC: It is, of course, important, Dirprwy Lywydd, to emphasise that different learners have different needs. We want to empower schools to choose the outdoor learning experiences that best support their particular learners in their particular context. That will—and rightly will—look different for different learners, with different contexts at different ages. To be successful, our efforts to promote outdoor learning, which we are all agreed are vital, must recognise this.
We also need to ensure that learners' access to outdoor learning is something that happens throughout their time in school. We need learners to have ongoing memorable and engaging experiences of outdoor learning that will develop the behaviours and attitudes that instil a lifelong love of the outdoors.
The first concern I have with the proposed Bill is that it intends that one approach to providing outdoor learning and experience should be made a statutory duty. Our new curriculum approach in Wales is to ensure that the experiences of the learner reflect as nearly as possible the needs of that learner. That is not reflected in the approach that the Bill proposes.
My second concern, which the Member has anticipated in his opening contribution, is that the costs are significant. The Member's explanatory memorandum estimates the bill for this to be around £10 million to £13.6 million. Our early analysis would put it closer to the £18 million mark. Either way, given the current economic climate, this creates another very significant pressure on an already highly pressurised funding pot. We all know that the outlook for public funding over the next few years is extremely bleak. The inflationary pressure on our current funding from the UK Government means that we are getting considerably less for our money now than we would have when it was allocated, and there is little to no sign that this pressure will be eased in the short to medium term. Indeed, there is a very real scenario in which we face even deeper cuts to our budget.
At a time when we are doing everything we can to reduce the financial burden on schools and parents, I cannot add more pressure to the public purse, however sympathetic I am to the broad aims of the proposed Bill. In future, when we reach a point when the funding choices aren't, perhaps, so stark, we might be able to have a different sort of discussion, but in the current climate, it is simply not possible.
However, having recently met on more than one occasion with the Member and with members of the cross-party group for the outdoor activity sector, I know that there is an enormous amount of energy, experience and expertise available to us. The proposal has brought a renewed vigour to the discussion of the merits of outdoor learning, and I would like to work with the sector, alongside my officials and our school practitioners, on ways to encourage more outdoor learning, including outdoor residential experiences, in a way that is practically deliverable.
Areas that could be explored, for example, could include improved professional learning support for practitioners, initial teacher education, resources and supporting materials, and the sharing of good practice, including to help address some of the barriersthat schools face or perceive. Such an approach would make practitioners central to a conversation about what works best for outdoor learning, and how this can be done. With the best will in the world, there will of course be less capacity to do all of that good work if we are also engaged in working with the Member on the Bill, but I would hope we could make at least some progress. I know from our discussions with the Member that he would be keen to work together, and I welcome that.
In conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Government cannot support the Bill, but we are proposing an alternative approach, within the principles of our curriculum, to work instead with the Member and others on developing a package of measures that can be implemented quickly, in the here and now, aimed at strengthening the impact of and access to outdoor education for all of our learners in Wales, without putting an unwelcome pressure on its already pressured funding pot. Diolch yn fawr.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: My thanks go to Sam for bringing forward this legislative proposal. It gives a really much-needed airing here in the Senedd to the benefits of outdoor education and activity. It's very timely on the back of the new curriculum, which has been shaped by the heightened realisation of the wide benefits of learning in the outdoors. Indeed, the Welsh Government curriculum guidance states that learning outdoors can lead to high levels of well-being, confidence and engagement; that it supports social, emotional, spiritual and physical development; that it provides opportunities to inspire awe and wonder, to engage and connect with the natural world, to explore the concept of sustainability in a practical way; and to explore a young person's physical potential, develop their ability to assess and experience risk, helping to develop resilience and confidence. So, we're on fertile ground, where, from Welsh Government to front-line educators, there's a drive towards taking our pupils, our young people, into the great outdoors.
The habits of early years are ingrained. If we develop active participation in the outdoors as a child, it sticks with us. In primary school, I was lucky enough to visit Llangrannog for a week, and also an outdoor education centre in the Gower, learning about oxbow lakes and prehistoric burial mounds. In secondary school, we went to Bala, and we canoed and we climbed. Our geography teacher took us scrambling over the mountains and valleys of north Wales, to study glacial moraines, arêtes, drumlins and cirques. We learnt hands on through the Duke of Edinburgh awards, to gold level, how to safely venture into the outdoors in all conditions, and read maps and the hills in front of us, old style. And by the time I left school, I could trust myself, and be trusted by others, to walk back in the snow and the full moon along the Fan Hir ridge, or even to hike those Alps that I never got to as a youngster because there was a fee to do so. I've been there now, and I've literally got the T-shirt. Now, at nearly 60, I still get itchy feet to get out of the Siambr and up high on the mountains, or on our great Wales coast path, or even canoeing the Cleddau. Residential stays are even more profound for a young person than even the best, the most brilliant day excursions. Staying away from home with your peers, with expert and experienced tutors and teachers, is a deeper and more lasting experience. It's the difference between dipping your toes in that mountain stream and full head-and-shoulders immersion in that mountain lake.
With my own background, but also as the current chair of the cross-party group for the outdoor activity sector, of which Sam is a prominent member—and, in fact, many of Wales's outdoor organisations are members, and probably helped him in drafting the legislative proposal—I have an intuitive warmth towards this. But there are, and Sam will acknowledge this, some real and difficult questions to face, which are not to do with the good intent or principle of the proposal, but they go to the heart of the practicality at this moment in time. Not least amongst these—and the Minister touched on them—are costs and legislative time. The proposal isn't clear on costs yet, understandably. It estimates £10 million to £15 million, but it could be more. The costs have a heightened significance right now, at a time when we know that schools, local authorities and the Welsh Government itself are under intense pressures. We anticipate that things could get a lot worse. To mandate schools, local authorities or the Welsh Government to even find another £10 million or £15 million, or more, for residential stays right now—a cost that, I have to say, in better times, would be considered money well spent—is I suspect currently money not available easily, when, at the same time, schools may be this autumn facing decisions on whether to lay off staff, not just whether they can afford an uplift in salaries.
The second issue is that of legislative time and the immense legislative load of Government and the Senedd, and, indeed, the Commission. There's the made-in-Wales legislation, which is ramping up as the programme for government and the co-operation agreement commitments kick in; the unprecedented number of LCMs flowing from the made-in-England and Wales legislation, originating from Westminster; the long tail continuing of the post-Brexit legislation and the pandemic legislation—all this and the pending Northern Ireland legislation and the headlong rush to remove EU retained law from the statute book by December 2023, involving an estimated 2,400 regulations, but we're not sure of the exact number. The legislative workload has never been so stretched; school and public finances likewise. There has never been, Sam, a more challenging time to bring forward a Bill, and I say that as somebody who is supportive of seeing more backbench legislation forming part of our legislative programme.
If the reality I describe is correct, Minister, then it does fall to you to explain how the spirit, if not the letter, of this well-intentioned proposal can be taken forward. You've started to flesh that up. If we don't have the cash or the legislative capacity right now, that will surely not always be the case. I and others would advocate that our children and young people should have access to the outdoors as a rite—and I say this in capitals—of passage into safe lifelong enjoyment and exploration of the outdoors with all the benefits it brings.
Minister, you've acknowledged in your statement that a residential outdoor experience could indeed be part of every child or person's life, and that if the timing is wrong now, and the door is not being shut forever on such a proposal, that Government will embark on a new phase of work with the organisations behind the proposal, and the proposer, Sam, and the cross-party group on ways to encourage greater uptake of outdoor experience, and this will look at removing real or perceived barriers to outdoor residential uptake from schools, but immediately, ways in which the sector can work with the new curriculum to maximise opportunities for them and for learners.
Finally, Minister, if I could simply ask you in closing to make every effort—. I know you've engaged constructively with Sam, and likewise, it's been reciprocated. I want you to continue that dialogue with Sam, with the wider outdoor education and activity sector, and also, dare I suggest, with the cross-party group as well, because this is a well-intentioned piece of legislation, even if the timing is difficult.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Sam, for bringing this forward today.

Heledd Fychan AS: I don't avidly follow your Twitter or Facebook, I have to admit; I like to look after my blood pressure. [Laughter.] But I have seen the research that you've referenced, and, certainly, we can all relay the countless benefits there are from outdoor education. Many of us, as Huw mentioned, have had the pleasure of being in Llangrannog, Glan-llyn—all those are invaluable experiences, and we would like to see, I'm sure, every child and young person have that opportunity.
We will be supporting you in taking forward the Bill. We think it's important that some of the issues raised are explored further. Of course, we have questions around the funding. There are some questions I've outlined when we've met and discussed in terms of some of the practicalities there, but we think it does deserve having that additional time and additional focus, for us to understand currently who does and who doesn't have access to this opportunity, what risks there are from the cost-of-living crisis with local authorities in terms of those currently having these experiences missing out, because we can't take that for granted. The thing that really convinced us was, in particular, the fact that we see from the evidence that it indicates worryingly that double the percentage of children who live in the most affluent local authorities attend an outdoor education residential visit compared to those pupils in the local authorities with the highest levels of deprivation. If we're talking about ensuring that every child has the best start in life, then surely it cannot be that it's only the most affluent, those that can afford. So, even if it is looking at how we provide for those families who are currently in receipt of grants in terms of school uniform et cetera, we would love to see this expanded so that more children and young people can benefit.
I think there are also things that we can tie in with the target of a million Welsh speakers, and our agreement to be working on a Welsh language education Bill, because key to this as well is the opportunity outdoor education provides for children and young people to enjoy through the medium of Welsh, to be able to be in Glan-llyn in a canoe and enjoy through the medium of Welsh, to have all those enriching experiences. Because these outdoor education experiences aren't just for those in Welsh-medium education at the moment. If we're serious about the Welsh language as a single continuum, then this provides a great opportunity to introduce the Welsh language outside of the classroom, in a fun and engaging way. I know that the Urdd have embraced the opportunities provided by this Bill in particular. Wouldn't it be amazing if every child in Wales had the opportunity to go to either Gwersyll yr Urdd in Cardiff here, or Llangrannog or Glan-llyn, and have that fun experience through the medium of Welsh? All of this is possible.
We do believe there are some things—. Of course, finances are the most challenging things. Determining the budgets for residential visits, drawing up a comprehensive plan, are all important, but we agree with the principle that, regardless of family income or demographic, all children and young people should have this opportunity. We need to be mindful as well, of course, in terms of teacher engagement. Teachers, very often, organise such initiatives in addition to what they're doing already. It obviously takes time away from the classroom as well, but they see it as worthwhile, so we would like to see teaching unions engaged in the work as it progresses. But we wish you luck and we look forward to engaging more positively, if this is taken forward.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'm more than happy to stand here and support this Bill today, and I'd like to thank my colleague Sam Rowlandsfor bringing it to the floor. I was delighted to hear the positivity coming from across the Chamber from Plaid Cymru as well. I was delighted when I saw that this Bill was drawn, as I know, just like myself, that the Member for North Wales is passionate about ensuring that every child and young person has this opportunity—I certainly did, when I was younger—to participate in a week-long residential outdoor education visit at some point during their school journey, ensuring that they too can learn new skills and maybe an appreciation for the outdoors, as well as benefiting from it in terms of physical exercise. It is essential that this Welsh Government and governments that follow give the sort of ring-fenced money to deliver this aim, so it ensures that our local authorities and schools are able to deliver these exciting experiences for our youngsters, even when we face tough economic times.
The benefits of residential outdoor education visits for young people are clear for all to see. As well as the obvious enjoyment on the faces of our young people, they are a way to bond with their peers, to share experiences with friends, to promote healthier lifestyles, to improve mental health and, often, to improve educational outcomes. It isn't right that young people from less affluent areas miss out on these opportunities, like in many parts of my south-east Wales region, and it shouldn't depend on where you live or what school you go to. Many of us, like myself, often take for granted the opportunities and experiences that we had growing up, when many children and young people across Wales haven't had these same experiences. This Bill goes a long way to levelling that playing field across Wales, ensuring equality of opportunity, ensuring we don't have a postcode lottery, council by council, to have experiences like this.
As Sam Rowlands said, if every child were to be fully funded to partake in these activities, initial estimates put the cost between £10 million to £15 million, less than 0.06 per cent of the Welsh Government's budget, although you predict it to be more, Minister. It certainly seems to me that it would be a relatively small price to pay for the education and well-being outcomes for our children that would result from it. Obviously this money needs to come from the centre, and not be put on our local authorities. But we have seen, particularly post pandemic, the investment in outdoor facilities and outdoor spaces, and the increase in outdoor learning, and schools using those learning environments far more now, and the benefits that they have had across Wales.
As shadow education Minister, I am pleased to see ideas like this coming to the Senedd, which enhance what is already there, and I'd like to thank Sam Rowlands for presenting this Bill today. I put my support fully behind it. I now hope that the Chamber can work constructively on the Bill to ensure that young people don't miss out. I just want to make one final point, actually. I just wanted to make sure that it's made clear that this is an out-of-school opportunity that Sam is proposing, not in-school, as you outlined, Minister. Both are important, and, as Huw quite rightly said, it's a deeper long-lasting experience that is being proposed here. I urge you all today to support this motion and the Bill that Sam has brought forward. Thank you.

Jane Dodds AS: I stand here as someone with a very open mind. I'll be honest, I haven't made a decision on how I'm going to vote, and I do understand that my vote may mean that this continues or doesn't today. So, I'm standing here giving some views. On the one hand, thank you, Sam, for doing this. I like the universality of it. I like the fact that it appeals to everybody, rich or poor, and that there's no discrimination. In fact, that's what some of us believe in relation to universal basic income—that we should all have that income floor. So, I would support the universality of it. I think nobody here—nobody here—disagrees with the principle, so there's no need, in my view, for any further evidence. There's no need for any further arguments that tell us all how either we've benefited from the ability to go away or others have benefited from it.
I'm just reflecting on Huw Irranca-Davies's experience in Llangrannog. I did go to Llangrannog, but I have absolutely nothing that I could bring from that experience into my adult life. That's not to say that I didn't love it, and I think everybody should have it. It's great that you've got that. I just think there are massive challenges here.Sam talked a bit about it, but we all have houses that we run, and the Welsh Government and Cabinet Ministers are here to balance the budgets. If we spend money on this, what goes? Eighteen million pounds, and possibly more, because it is about capacity, not just the capacity of the Welsh Government staff, but also the capacity of our local authority staff could be going on this. So, I really would appreciate hearing more about that in this debate in order for me to make a decision.
Right now, let's look at what is facing schools, not just here—well, in Wales, we have specific issues—but across the UK. We don't have enough teachers and we want to pay them more. We don't have enough classroom assistants and we want to pay them more. We know that, in schools—and this is a pet project of mine—children have very bad tooth decay, and we actually want to see that happening better at the grass-roots level. Even with the Designed to Smile programme in Wales, between 2 per cent and 5 per cent of children under seven are going to hospital—double the amount are going to hospital to have their teeth removed. They're having anaesthetic and a hospital admission. So, these are some of the priorities.
Some of us went to the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association reception and we heard about habilitators. They are people who should be working with children who are blind or have visual impairments across our schools in Wales in order to help them to be able to get on in life. There are only 10 in Wales at the moment. That means that children with visual impairment or who are blind actually don't have the ability to get on in life.Those are some of the challenges that are being faced across the UK.
In addition, and I am pleased to support this, Wales has committed itself to free school meals for children. I just don't know how we're going to be able to fund not only those challenges but what you put forward, Sam. So, I would like to really hear from you, as you summarise, what is going to go—literally, what we're going to ditch, what we're going to jettison, if we are going to support this. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you very much.[Interruption.] Oh, sorry. Yes, you can intervene.

No, you'd finished. Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I congratulate Sam Rowlands on his success in being drawn in the ballot and I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate on his outdoor education (Wales) Bill.
As someone who was fortunate enough to grow up in rural Pembrokeshire with the countryside just outside my front door, I was always fortunate to enjoy the full extent of our natural world. Indeed, that important link with our environment is one that we shouldn't underestimate. Not just because it nurtures growth and reflection, but because it develops a respect and a learning about the importance of our countryside, rural life, food, farming and wildlife—developing our understanding and strengthening our efforts to protect and preserve.
Unlike some of my classmates, my love for the outdoors was developed from an early age, but not all children are able to experience the countryside in the same way as I did. Let's make no mistake, to take education outdoors is to bring the natural world into the classroom, and by doing so, you can take a child's education and enhance its quality, value and worth. But, it is for this reason that we need to ensure that every child has equal access to the outdoors.For me and many of my classmates, it was trips to Glan-llyn and Llangrannog, which other Members have mentioned today, Urdd residential camps, that saw them fully appreciate the value of nature.Therefore, I'm really pleased to learn from Sam that the Urdd are supporting this Bill. This was not just the first time that me and my friends had been away from home, but, for many, the first time that they had a chance to experience the real outdoors. From kayaking across Llyn Tegid, as Heledd mentioned, to nature walks and bushcraft in Llangrannog, these opportunities played a critical role in the development of not just myself, but also my friends who weren't as fortunate as me, who hadn't experienced the joys and benefits of our natural environment.
However, not all young people are afforded this opportunity. By granting consent to this Bill, we can ensure that every child, no matter their background, can discover and fall in love with the countryside. And as we've heard from colleagues, the benefits of this are second to none. Whether that be improving physical health and mental well-being, developing better personal and social learning, alongside the growth in cognitive development—all enhancing educational attainment and teaching standards. The impact that an outdoor education can have on our young people goes far beyond what can be learnt in a classroom. Discovering our outdoors brings the world of our countryside, farming, wildlife and rural life right into the classroom and, at this moment, we can ensure that every child has limitless access to these opportunities, of the kind that our education provides.
In responding to the previous Member, Jane Dodds's concerns around this Bill, I would plead with her to offer Sam your support at this stage so that further work can be done on this to see how this can be done, and I think those benefit savings that Sam mentioned at the beginning in opening this debate, where moneys would be saved elsewhere by having healthier children, more educated children—I think that's where there's real value within Sam's Bill today. So, I plead with you to give him support at this stage so that further evidence can be collected and more discussion can be had around this. I commend Sam for his diligence, his dedication and determination in getting this Bill moving forward, and I have no hesitation whatsoever in offering him and the Bill my full support. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I must say that this proposal does have laudable aims, and thanks, Sam, for bringing this forward for a discussion. I think trying and learning new skills in our wonderful outdoor environment of independence, bonding with others in a day at camp or an outdoor activity are ones you do remember, and it's great for physical and mental health and well-being. I don't remember going to one with school, but I went with the Brownies and Sunday school, and I remember reading to children who were missing their parents, and I know that that is an issue that has been brought up—being away from parents as well is a bit of an issue, but it is good to build that confidence. I think it's so important for children to connect with nature, because if they don't do so as a child, then they won't do as an adult. So, that's really, really important going forward. And I think, with there being a nature emergency as well as a climate emergency, I would like any programme and the curriculum to educate and teach children about the importance of the variety of wildlife and habitats, connecting to nature, and I think that the forest schools initiative is really good.
So, I think it's a really great proposal if there was the funding, and the situation is dire. And according to the new Prime Minister, it's going to get even worse, and I think that there needs to be a reality check here. As you know, I was a Flintshire councillor for 14 years and I was a member of the education scrutiny committee, and I recall that, when we were looking at funding cuts over the years, we looked at the cost of giving that funding to the outdoor education centres. I know that each authority used to give towards Pentre-llyn-cymmer and Nant Bwlch yr Haearn, but, in the end, we had to look at the core funding of education, so we had to remove that funding bit by bit, which was terrible. I remember, under that austerity, every year, we sliced 30 per cent off each budget, and I remember being in the chamber facing opposition members as I was trying to introduce garden waste charges and car park increases, but I was being told by my fellow cabinet members, 'It's either do that, or we cut education.' Now, I couldn't cut education, because it's so important, but I know that other local authorities did and, I'm afraid, Sam, Conwy did cut the core funding for education and caused dire issues there, where they’ve had to cut teaching assistants and staff, and I just can't support this if there isn't that money going forward.
Councils are facing even more funding cuts now because of what's happened over the last few weeks, because of fuel increases, inflationary pressures, and people are talking about going out on strike. I know that Cardiff is facing a £53 million funding gap, Flintshire £26 million, Conwy is about the same, and I think Denbighshire is about £10 million. It's really, really worrying. They're looking at rationalisation of play areas even—play areas; we need them on doorstep play. Closure of swimming baths, public rights of way maintenance, and countryside services—that was on the table to be cut when I was a cabinet member—access to rights of way and country parks. So, without those, what are we going to do? And those are what are on the table now. It'sso worrying. We're in such a dire situation. Children are going hungry and cold. It's a matter of priorities, and this is why—. Thank goodness we've got these universal free school meals coming forward; that's so much more important. Schools are looking at wrap-around care, providing that childcare so that mothers can go out to work as well—[Interruption.] Sorry, I'm in full flow at the moment—and becoming warm hubs. That's so important. Further education are providing breakfast because people are turning up at those hungry. These are young adults starving—[Interruption.] I'm sorry, that wasn't a proper intervention, so I won't reply to that.
Speaking briefly to the WLGA education member—

I think the Member has indicated that she is not going to take the intervention. Let her complete her speech.

Carolyn Thomas AS: —he has said to me that the Welsh Government, though, does provide PDG funding, so they do use that money to enable those who are on free school meals to visit education centres at the moment. So, if the Minister could let me know if that funding is being cut, because it is essential.
As I said, schools do not have the resources. Now is not the time for this. The UK Government, the Tory Government, are talking about more funding cuts, and it's those funding cuts that are causing issues here. The Welsh Government spends over 90 per cent of its budget on public service funding. [Interruption.] Absolutely not. And I hope that Sam Rowlands and the Conservatives will support public service funding, not further cuts going forward. This is why I always speak against austerity and cuts to public service funding. That's why I wanted to become a member of this party—to shout out about it.Now is not the right the time. I do support the idea of it, but now is not the right time, and I hope that I got these points across, because I feel very strongly about it. Thank you very much.

Peter Fox is the last speaker.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to start by saying that I will be supporting this motion today, and I very much welcome the proposal that has been tabled by Sam. Knowing myself how much work goes into designing a Bill from scratch, I really feel that your explanatory memorandum was excellent and really sums up why we need this forward-thinking legislation.
Deputy Presiding Officer, as has been stated in the debate, outdoor education is such an important part of a young person's development. The practical skills that are gained from such an experience are beneficial for later life. It also helps to improve their physical and mental well-being, but also to develop their independence. So, young people should not be forced to miss out on such opportunities. I know personally how my—[Interruption.] Sorry, I thought you were.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much for taking the intervention, because as the former leader of Monmouthshire council, you'll be aware that the PDG is one of the ways in which funding is supposed to be directed at giving opportunities to young people whose families can't afford to pay for it themselves. So, having listened carefully to what Sam Rowlands said about the inverse care law going on here, which is that some of the most deprived local authorities are the ones that are having the least outdoor education, it clearly is a major problem. But we have to surely ask, 'Are schools properly using their pupil development grants?' as well as, we have to consider how well we are addressing the inverse care law when it comes to the numbers of voluntary organisations that are supporting schools to enable these sorts of outdoor trips to take place, because we know that charities are far less likely to be operating in poor areas than they are in better-off areas.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Jenny, and I absolutely recognise your point and some good points of how that assistance can be used. I'm going to come on a little further, in a moment, to local government funding, but I'll just pick up where I left off. I know personally how my own children and many other Monmouthshire children have benefited from their time at Gilwern outdoor education centre andHilston Park. There used to be Talybont as well, which was owned by Newport but run by Monmouthshire. And I myself as a young boy, 50-odd years ago, went to Llangrannog as well, because I grew up in Carmarthen, down there. But when I was leader of Monmouthshire County Council, I always made sure that these services were protected, even during times when we received challenging settlements, and we've always had challenging settlements in Monmouthshire.
I've been very disappointed over recent years when neighbouring local authorities, funded far greater from Monmouthshire,withdrew from that Gwent-based education service and left Monmouthshire on its own holding the baby, but we would keep it going. So, it's important that local authorities as well as schools show a commitment to young people's development, and clearly that was being pulled out in some areas, and they had the resources to do it; they chose not to. So, as that example shows, unfortunately not every young person has equal opportunity to receive outdoor education, and the research paper published by Sam further highlights the barriers to such education: 60 per cent of schools surveyed cited financial reasons; 23 schools do not offer any support to families who are financially constrained, and by far the greatest barrier to inclusion in outdoor education was the inability of families to pay.
Now, I know that we are in challenging times, but you've got to remember that this Bill, if it was to receive Royal Assent, would probably be two or three years down the line, and we're talking about money and financial constraints at this moment. You've got to find reasons why, sometimes, things can happen, not why they can't happen. And that's one of the biggest problems I've found since I've been here in the Welsh Assembly—rather, the Senedd—is why we find reasons that things can't happen and we try to trade off, Jane, with 'What can you do? What can't you do?' Sometimes, you've got to make things happen. People make things happen or people stop things happening, and that's what happens too often. You've got to have foresight, look ahead, see how you can improve the future generations, because these difficult times will not last forever. Look ahead, look to the future, look to our future generations.
So, it's really important that we do get behind this Bill. I hope that Wales's Government and the Minister will interact more with Sam, moving forward. I'm disappointed that the Government can't support the Bill, and I know that more work and engagement is going to happen. But I ask you, Jane, as Sam did, please think carefully. You're in a very privileged position to hold the casting vote in many ways on decisions here. It's a big responsibility. Don't stifle the opportunity of our future generations; give them an opportunity to breathe. Presiding Officer, I rest my case, and I support the Bill.

I call on Sam Rowlands to respond to the debate.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I say how fantastic it has been to listen to Members from across the Chamber this afternoon outlining their views and their support, certainly at least in principle, for the ideas behind the outdoor education (Wales) Bill? It's also always interesting to hear of Members' experiences in the great outdoors and the privilege that they had growing up and in school as well. I just want to reiterate a few points that have been raised today by Members during the debate and discussion, and it's the reminder that outdoor education has proven health and well-being benefits, along with the appreciation of the world that we live in, our environment, which certainly has the ability to shape our youngsters in the long run. We've also been reminded that the statistics and data sadly show that not enough of our young people are able to participate, and this is primarily down to financial constraints.
We have, of course, heard throughout this Members' concerns about timing and about costs, and they're really important concerns. But, as I outlined in the opening of today's debate, I am convinced that there would be longer-term savings from a physical health and mental health and well-being perspective. I think there would be savings to be gained through the way in which our young people engage with the environment more broadly. And as Members have already outlined here today, the whole purpose of this here today is to enable me, working with others, to look at the nuts and bolts, to look at the detail, to understand fully what the opportunities are and then how that can be financed and perhaps where the savings can come from as well. And as Peter Fox outlined just a moment ago, Bills, as we know, take years to go through the process. So, whilst there are immediate concerns right here and now, absolutely, I understand that, but by giving me 12 months to have a look at the nuts and bolts on this, do the research properly and come back and go through the process, we have a great opportunity to make a difference, a long-lasting difference, in the lives of our young people.
I'm conscious of time, Deputy Presiding Officer, so in closing I'd like to thank all of those who've supported the Bill so far here today. Certainly, Minister, thank you for your engagement through this process as well. I'm looking forward to that continuing. Members of the Senedd, the Senedd support team, councils, the outdoor education, and many others have provided a huge amount of support up until this point, and I hope Members from across the Chamber have heard today and understand the real positive that this Bill could bring, and will allow me the opportunity to introduce this Bill in the future and carry out the work that is needed to be done to deliver long-lasting benefits to our young people and communities up and down Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? Yes, there is an objection. I will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal—Take-up of Benefits Bill

Item 7 is next, a debate on a Member's legislative proposal, take-up of benefits Bill, and I call on Sioned Williams to move the motion.

Motion NDM8108 Sioned Williams
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes a proposal for a take-up of benefits Bill.
2. Notes that the purpose of the Bill would be to:
a) ensure that more money ends up in Welsh people’s pockets by increasing take up of Welsh and local authority support payments;
b) place a duty on all public sector organisations to maximise take-up of Welsh and local authority benefits;
c) require public bodies to streamline and make consistent throughout Wales the method of application for such benefits.

Motion moved.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I was recently asked by a constituent of mine who is struggling to pay her bills, 'What’s the point of Welsh Government if they can't help us?' It's a valid question, because what good is devolution if we are powerless to protect, at the very least, our most vulnerable citizens? The proposal before you is a way to make the powers that we do have, the resources that we can deploy, more efficient and effective by ensuring every pound—every Welsh pound of support on offer—reaches people's pockets as easily and quickly as possible. The deficiencies, disparities and, during the last decade of Tory Westminster rule, downright cruelty that characterises the UK welfare system have caused hardship for tens of thousands of Welsh people and has seen the Welsh Government forced to step in where Westminster has failed Wales.
The Scotland Act 2016 gave Scotland new powers relating to social security, including responsibility over certain benefits, which the Scottish Government are using to create a Scottish social security system based on dignity, fairness and respect. Plaid Cymru have long campaigned for the devolution of the administration of welfare to Wales, and we’re glad to be moving forward on this issue through our co-operation agreement with the Welsh Government. But, while we wait for progress on that ambition, the support available from Welsh coffers has rightly been fast multiplying and thus evolving into a whole patchwork of payments that are mainly, but not solely, delivered by local authorities. The payments are sometimes means tested, sometimes linked to certain benefits, with eligibility conditions varying, forms and regularity of payment differing, and modes of application mainly separate and often complicated.
Let's take the schemes available to help with fuel bills as an example. In Wales, we have a winter fuel support scheme, recently renamed in its second roll-out from this September as the Welsh fuel support scheme. Eligible households on certain benefits between certain months can claim a one-off cash payment from their local authority. This is different to the winter fuel payment and the cold weather payment, which is offered by UK Government. The fuel voucher scheme is a new form of support to provide crisis help to those households that have to pay in advance for their energy, providing top-up vouchers for those on prepayment meters and a crisis service for households that are off gas. But you can't apply; households have to be referred. The discretionary assistance fund provides two types of grant, one of which, the emergency assistance payment, is available until the end of March to help off-gas households suffering financial hardship to top-up oil and LPG. Those who need emergency support to top-up gas and electricity prepayment meters can also get support, although, if you Google the DAF, you'll get to a Welsh Government page that makes no mention of this. Again, application has to be done through a support worker. So, you get the picture: different eligibility, different rules, different application processes. And this is all meant to help people who are in crisis, who, to be frank, have no headspace for navigating all this while they are worrying about how to keep their kids warm. And this is just support with fuel.
The Bevan Foundation argues for the need for a Welsh system of devolved benefits and services. Its research into the way these Welsh Government and local authority support payments, allowances and grants were administered suggests that changes to individual schemes and their integration into a seamless system could increase their reach and impact. When it first made these calls, there were 12 different grants and allowances, each administered separately, so, even where eligibility criteria were the same, people had to apply for each type of support separately. As with the example I gave regarding fuel support payments, many more have been introduced or eligibility expanded since the start of the pandemic and the cost-of-living crisis. And so the basis and argument for creating a single, seamless, integrated system has thus only increased.
And support isn't support if you don't know it's there or are unable to access it. The latest survey by Children in Wales included this view from one practitioner who works with children and families:
'It is not enough to say people lack information about their entitlements. Many of the vulnerable people I see would not be able to navigate this complex system without a lot of ongoing support.'
We should bear that in mind while noting that fewer than halfof eligible households made an application for the first round of the winter fuel support scheme.
Organisations such as Home Start Cymru, who work across 18 local authorities supporting families with children, agree the situation needs to be improved and simplified. At a recent meeting of the Senedd cross-party group on poverty, they shared views from their Caerphilly Supporting People project. One mother said she didn't know there was a deadline for applying for the cost-of-living payment and so missed out. Another said, 'I got a £326 payment in the other week. I’m not sure what it’s for. But the reference on my bank account says it's just a number.' Staff shared how hard it is to support families with such a complex system to navigate. A common problem is being told by advisers they can't act on behalf of families to help solve things like council tax reduction claims; written permission is needed.
And I think the following quotation from a support worker really crystallises the need for change as proposed by the motion: 'One of the people I supported was a single dad. Although he was receiving universal credit and relying on foodbanks, he had been paying the full amount of council tax for 14 months. I discovered advisers in council tax don't ask if you're on benefits.'We know that council tax arrears are the biggest debt problem for Welsh households. Linking the council tax reduction scheme with eligibility for universal credit would prevent people falling into debt. There would be benefits in terms of a reduction in administration costs and capacity freed up for local authorities and advisers to promote benefits, further boosting take-up.
In answer to previous questions in the Senedd on ensuring maximisation and improvement of take-up, the Minister has pointed to the ongoing work, such as working with local authorities to explore how a single access point could be developed and the sharing of best practice by publishing a toolkit on how to simplify the application process. The Government has also said local authorities can passport those who are eligible for the council tax reduction scheme on to the Welsh fuel support scheme, but fewer than half of our local authorities are doing so. We need a whole-system, holistic approach.
The Minister has spoken about the work going into creating a charter for delivering these payments. And I welcome the fact research is being undertaken by Policy in Practice, funded by multiple organisations, to look at how a common approach can be achieved that would result in that 'no wrong door' approach that we know is so vital and effective. My argument here is that a charter, which is essentially guidance, won't cut it. It won't avoid a postcode lottery; it won't avoid those holes in that crucial safety net. We need a firm statutory footing for a rights-based system that will ensure a coherence and effectiveness, and allow people to apply for all the support they are entitled to in one place. And in Wales, Welsh Government has regulatory powers over local government, so this really is achievable.
There would be a cost to creating a system that speaks to all the systems it needs to, but the benefits are plain. Most importantly, it will help those who need every single penny of help to keep that heat on, to keep the light on, to keep children clothed and fed. Diolch.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Interesting contribution from Sioned Williams, and I share your passion for ensuring that everybody gets what they're entitled to, but that, of course, is a main plank of the Welsh Government's proposals to try and help people through these very difficult times. That's why we have 'Claim what's yours'.
So, I definitely support the administration of benefits to be devolved to Wales, as proposed by the Bevan Foundation, because I understand the benefits that it's had in Scotland. Amidst the unprecedented cost-of-living crisis, it looks very attractive to introduce such a Bill here, but is it within the scope of our powers and is it going to be necessary if, in fact, we get the devolution of benefits agreed by a future Government?
Clearly, we need to improve on what we're doing at the moment, because far too many people are suffering really horrendously. And, at the moment, charities, for example, are really raising the red flag over the numbers of people who are being dumped onto prepayment meters simply because they've run into debt on their existing arrangements. This is very, very worrying, and something that we probably need to do something about, because disconnection by the back door is simply unacceptable. We wouldn't be doing this in relation to water debt, and we don't need to be doing it in relation to enabling people to keep warm and the light on. But whether or not we need legislation to improve on the situation, or whether we need further instruction from Welsh Government to improve local authority assessment of this matter.
I was very concerned to hear Sioned say that fewer than half of the local authorities are passporting the council tax reduction benefit recipients onto other benefits, like the Welsh winter fuel payment scheme. That seems very worrying, because I know that that's certainly not occurring in Cardiff where all council tenants, for example, were automatically passported into the Welsh winter fuel payment scheme last year. Now, the take-up last year wasn't as good as 100 per cent, because it was obviously something that was done in a very short timescale, but now that the Welsh Government's extended the scheme to a greater number of households—400,000 low-income households for this coming winter—although the scheme started on 26 September, I am completely amazed that approaching half the number of eligible people have already taken up the claim. Obviously that's a reflection of need, but it's also a reflection of the competency of people to ensure that they're getting it.
I think that the universal free school meals is a missed opportunity to have a proper conversation with parents on whether they are actually claiming everything that they're entitled to, because I know that local authorities in England have massively increased the take-up of benefits as a result of that conversation that takes place—

Jenny, you need to conclude, please.

Jenny Rathbone AC: —on this. Lastly, I think, if Gordon Brown's proposals for constitutional reform include devolution of the administration of benefits to Wales, and they're accepted by a future Government, would we therefore need this legislation? And, in the meantime, how can we improve the way in which public authorities are engaging in this really important issue?

Mark Isherwood AC: In January 2019, the Bevan Foundation launched its project on the Welsh benefits system, aiming to develop a coherent and streamlined framework of help in Wales. As they said:
'The Welsh Government and Welsh local authorities provide a number of different schemes which...range from the provision of free school meals to discretionary housing payments.'
They added:
'At present, each of these schemes is viewed as discrete from each other, meaning that claimants often have to make multiple claims to receive all of the additional Welsh support they are entitled to, and creating inefficiency in the system.'
Speaking at the policy forum for Wales seminar on reducing poverty in Wales, welfare reform, local approaches and long-term strategies in March 2019, I noted that Community Housing Cymru had called on the Welsh Government to respond positively to their call for Welsh Government and local authorities to work with Jobcentre Plus in Wales to co-locate services and enable applications for local authority benefits to be made at the same time as universal credit.
Speaking here in September 2020, in the debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report, 'Benefits in Wales: options for better delivery', I welcomed the Welsh Government's acceptance of our recommendations that it establish a
'"coherent and integrated 'Welsh benefits system' for all the means-tested benefits for which it is responsible...co-produced with people who claim these benefits and the wider Welsh public"
'and that it used the Oxfam sustainable livelihoods approach toolkit'.
I added, however, that
'We now need words turned into real action so that at last things are done with people rather than to them.'
'The Welsh Government states that it is finalising actions to take forward following its review of its existing programmes and services'—
and they're—
'developing a set of principles and values on which a Welsh benefits system will be based and tackling poverty more widely will only succeed with citizen involvement at its core.'
That's over two years ago.
Speaking here in January 2021, I asked the First Minister how he responded to the calls by the Bevan Foundation, Citizens Advice Cymru and Community Housing Cymru for the Welsh Government to establish a single point of access for benefits and support schemes administered in Wales.
Speaking here in July2021, I challenged the Welsh Government on the actions it had taken to establish a coherent and integrated Welsh benefits system, as recommended in the 2019 committee report on benefits in Wales. I asked the Trefnydd, who was answering questions on behalf of the First Minister,
'what action has the Welsh Government therefore taken since to turn its words into real action'.
We'll be pleased to support the motion as drafted accordingly.

Luke Fletcher AS: I think Sioned hit the nail on the head when she said that support is not support if you don't know it's there. I'd like to thank her for proposing this motion. The reality is that many don't take up the benefits they're entitled to—benefits that they desperately need. I believe it is incumbent on the Government to seek out those in need and not to expect those in need to come forward.
There is an inherent stigma in claiming any support; we've seen countless reports highlight this. We've heard that the bureaucracy in applying acts as a barrier; again, countless reports highlight this. As Sioned has mentioned, people simply don't have the headspace or the time to seek out a large range of support from different providers. It's why I subscribe to the principle of universality, it's why I believe in universal free school meals and it's why I believe universal basic services are fundamental.
I believe—fundamentally believe—that any society that is compassionate should set out to ensure that everyone has access to the essentials. If we are going to tackle the cost-of-living crisis, if we are going to wake up from the neoliberal nightmare that is the UK today, then radical solutions, grounded in universality, are needed. I see this as a proposal that takes us in the right direction and I wholeheartedly support my friend's proposal.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I've been to three cost-of-living seminars in north Wales recently, and communication of what benefits people are entitled to was the biggest issue. There have been a variety of suggestions: an online grant checker, printing the CAB advice number on prescription bags from the pharmacy, having community advisers who get to know those hard to reach in the community and a single-point-of-access number, and I'd like the Government to write to everybody, as they did during the pandemic—that's my suggestion as well.
It was also discussed that there was a need for residents and, also, organisations to know what's happening. We need to make every contact count, so that's councillors; CABx; council social care; housing, revenue and benefits departments; and lottery fund officers. The list goes on: doctors, foodbanks, health visitors and district nurses.
Delivering benefits is messy, bureaucratic and costly. Local authorities are short staffed; I saw a local authority advertising for 12 new benefits staff, but each of those were on low pay as well, so that doesn't help. But, fundamentally, if universal credit had an uplift; if we had a universal basic income; if everyone had an inflationary increase; and if public services, which in Wales are a big employer, were properly funded, not cut year after year, people would have money in their pockets to spend in the local economy. Surely, that would be better.
I listen and learn, and those who have money conserve it, while those who don't are most generous and they will spend it—they will buy raffle tickets and they will help the community, spending each last bit of their money helping others, not hoarding it away.
If that change does not happen, we need to devolve social security. I think a fundamental change is needed. We need to get rid of the benefits system and bureaucracy once and for all. Anyway, thank you.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you for the opportunity to respond to this debate on the proposal of a take-up of benefits Bill. I do welcome the opportunity this debate provides to report on the actions the Welsh Government is taking to improve the take-up of benefits and to report on the ways we're driving this forward, in collaboration, particularly, with our local authorities. It has never been so vital that people are encouraged to claim every pound they're entitled to.
Through our every-contact-counts approach, we're taking a proactive stance on the identification of eligibility for benefits, concentrating on the public services that people use the most. And, as the Member proposing this motion has said, our Welsh benefits, which include support like free school meals, pupil development grant access, the council tax reduction scheme, the discretionary assistance fund and Healthy Start vouchers, are a lifeline for hundreds of thousands of people during the worst cost-of-living crisis in over 40 years. This year, our discretionary assistance fund has supported nearly 148,000 vulnerable individuals with more than £16.5 million in awards, help towards council tax bills is claimed by 268,000 people, and 73,024 children receive free school meals, and it's important we put that on the record.

Jane Hutt AC: Awareness of the financial support that is available, be it devolved or non-devolved, is increasing in households across Wales due to the success of campaigns like 'Claim what's yours'. Over 9,000 people are so far being helped to claim over £2.6 million of additional income in the latest reports, and I do thank our partners, including local authorities, for their support for our drive together to encourage people across Wales to claim their entitlements by promoting our campaign materials.
But whilst we are doing excellent work together to raise awareness, I recognise there is more that we can do to streamline the Welsh benefits system, and that is where we are focusing our actions. At present, a person will often have to complete multiple forms that ask for similar information but need to be sent to different departments. I know that this deters people from accessing their entitlements, and that's why the Welsh Government and our partners are absolutely committed to a shared vision of a Welsh benefits system that has that single point of contact, where an individual only has to tell their story once.
The Centre for Digital Public Services is working with my officials to undertake exploratory work and identify solutions that will allow for a cohesive, unified system, and I do welcome the separate research being led by the Bevan Foundation on the barriers to take-up of Welsh benefits. However, whilst we work towards this goal, we're continuing to deliver improvements. We're determined to ensure that the approach taken to administering Welsh benefits is a person-centred and compassionate one, based on rights and entitlements. The work we're undertaking to simplify the Welsh benefits system is supporting our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru for the devolution of the administration of welfare and the exploration of the necessary infrastructure required to prepare for this.
An essential element of this work is the benefits charter, an underpinning set of principles for the Welsh benefits system that we produced with stakeholders from our income maximisation group. We're now taking forward our charter from inception to implementation by engaging with people who claim Welsh benefits and delivery partners. Complementing the benefits charter is our best practice toolkit for local authorities, which provides practical tips and guidance on the administration of Welsh benefits. We've developed that toolkit in partnership with local authorities, drawing on their practical and operational experience. We believe it's most appropriate to work collaboratively with our local government colleagues to deliver the toolkit effectively, and we are working with them to share and exchange good practice in the take-up of benefits in Wales.
We've recently seen many examples of best practice, of new payments being delivered by local authorities, notably with the automation of the £150 cost-of-living payment, which in many cases was sent directly to eligible individuals without them needing to make an application—an approach that has now been adopted by authorities under the current Welsh Government fuel support scheme. As Jenny Rathbone has said, more than 185,000 payments have already been paid in less than a month.
So, I do extend my gratitude to all involved, whether working on the front line helping individuals to claim Welsh benefits, or responsible for administering those benefits, for their ongoing commitment to ensuring that people across Wales are able to claim what's available to them. That is where we're focusing our efforts.
Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I can't speak at a debate on benefits without mentioning the households across Wales who are facing daily financial struggles, with the highest level of inflation for over 40 years. I know all Members of the Senedd across the Chamber will join my call for the Chancellor to do the right thing and confirm that they will not break their previous promises, and will uprate all social security benefits by 10.1 per cent from April next year. Diolch.

Sioned, you did use all your allocated time for both opening and closing to open the session, but I've agreed to allocate an additional minute to you to close the session, so I'll now give you the time to do so.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's difficult when you're on Zoom and when you've got COVID.
I just want to say to Jenny, who wants to wait, that families can't wait. I would prefer to listen to those with lived experience, rather than Gordon Brown, on what solutions are needed.
Mark Isherwood, thank you for your support. I agree that these are not new ideas. Action is overdue. Imagine if this had been in place a few years ago, before the pandemic and the cost-of-living crisis hit. We heard in the questions earlier today to Rebecca Evans that local authorities are under so much pressure; we should be doing everything we can to help them expand and free up their capacity, and this would do that. We know that Citizens Advice are seeting a 200 per cent increase, and that was back at the end of August and the beginning of September. We need to free up the capacity of those support workers away from filling in forms.
I recognise, Minister, the effort the Welsh Government is making on income maximisation with 'Claim what's yours' et cetera, but we know, don't we, that guidance doesn't always do it. We've seen, when we talked about the cost of the school day, that guidance on school uniform isn't always adhered to, and that's why 'in many cases' isn't good enough. That's why this kind of legislation is needed—so that this is all put on a statutory footing.
I want to thank everybody who contributed to the debate. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I've heard an objection, therefore I defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee’s Report—'Everybody’s affected: Peer on peer sexual harassment among learners'

Item 8 today is a debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee’s report, 'Everybody’s affected: Peer-on-peer sexual harassment among learners'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Jayne Bryant.

Motion NDM8112 Jayne Bryant
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Children, Young People and Education Committee ‘Everybody’s affected: Peer on peer sexual harassment among learners’ which was laid in the Table Office on 13 July 2022.

Motion moved.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Before I begin my opening remarks, I should warn anybody listening to today’s debate that I will be talking in a general way about peer-on-peer sexual harassment among children and young people. Some people may find some of what I and others say distressing.
I'll begin by making it clear what exactly I mean when I talk about 'sexual harassment'. I mean making sexual comments, remarks, jokes, and nasty comments to cause humiliation, distress or alarm; I mean taking pictures under a person’s clothes without them knowing; I mean sharing nude photos or videos of someone without their consent, or sending unwanted sexually explicit photos or videos to someone. By sexual harassment, I do not mean 'banter'. Sexual harassment is not 'boys being boys', whatever that means. It is not bullying, either. When I talk about sexual harassment, I am talking about a form of sexual violence.
We launched this inquiry because of the shocking findings of Estyn’s thematic report, published in December 2021, alongside concerns raised to me by representatives of police forces in Wales. We took verbal and written evidence from professionals, organisations and the Welsh Government between February and May this year. We also launched a survey aimed at children and young people to ask them what change they wanted to see to reduce peer-on-peer sexual harassment in schools and colleges.
The remarkably consistent evidence we received described a harrowing backdrop to the learning of many children and young people: catcalling, hurtful comments, homophobic and transphobic verbal abuse during the school day. And the problem is worse outside the school day. Those abusive comments continue on messaging apps and social media. Alongside those comments, learners receive such high volumes of unsolicited sexualimages that many young people have become desensitised to image-based abuse. The problem is so extensive that many girls and young women see it as a part of normal life.
That should alarm everybody here. Because the impact of sexual harassment is substantial and long-lasting. It affects young people’s mental health and educational attainment. It can drain self-confidence, cause withdrawal from education and society, lead to substance abuse, self-harm and even attempted suicide. These risks are heightened for our most vulnerable learners.
That peer-on-peer sexual harassment among learners is so common in schools and colleges is a reflection of society more widely. Sexism, homophobia and transphobia are stubbornly deep-rooted in schools, just as they are across society at large. Pornography depicting unrealistic, unhealthy or even violent sex is easily accessible, and is the first sex education that many young people get. And although social media and messaging apps provide wonderful opportunities for people to communicate and stay in touch, they can create pressure for young people to look, act or behave in a certain way. They can act as vehicles for sexual harassment by making it easy to share sexual images.

Jayne Bryant AC: The causes of peer-on-peer sexual harassment are incredibly complicated. For that reason, we see very little value in singling out anyone to blame for its root causes. But we are clear as a committee that a lot needs to change. We heard time and time again from professionals and from young people that despite pockets of good practice, sex and relationships education is generally poor. We heard that it was not done well enough, insufficient, poor quality and, sometimes, even completely absent. The Welsh Government must ensure that pupils are taught about the underlying causes of peer-on-peer sexual harassment.
We heard over and over again that the new curriculum is an opportunity to improve sex and relationships education. We hope that its potential is realised. But any child currently in year 8 or above—those most at risk of peer-on-peer sexual harassment—will never be taught under the new curriculum. So, old curriculum or new, change must take place at pace for the sake of every single learner. We also heard from young people that school staff routinely downplay their experiences of sexual harassment, dismiss their concerns, or even completely ignore signs that it’s happening. All schools must make it absolutely clear to their learners that sexual harassment is unacceptable. They must respond to reports seriously, promptly and consistently.
We have asked Estyn to amend its inspection framework for schools and colleges to ensure that it focuses on how well education establishments keep records of sexual harassment, how they respond to allegations of sexual harassment, and support learners who have experienced it. But we understand that many school staff do not feel that they have received adequate training to be able to respond to peer-on-peer sexual harassment confidently. Conversations with young people about unhealthy sexual behaviours are not easy. School staff need support. We have recommended that the Welsh Government provides ring-fenced funding for training for all school staff, not just teaching staff, to identify, respond to and report incidents of peer-on-peer sexual harassment.
In total, we made 24 recommendations in our report, some of which I have already touched on, but before I turn to my colleagues across the Senedd and in Government for their contributions, I'll add just a few more. Perhaps the most important is that young people must be central to developing the Welsh Government’s response to peer-on-peer sexual harassment in the form of a young people’s advisory board. Our hope is that this board shapes action in relation to some key recommendations: a national awareness-raising campaign targeted at learners and their families; a review of the support offered to victims of sexual harassment; and the development of a bank of effective approaches to sex and relationships education.
We know too little about the scale and nature of sexual harassment in primary schools and colleges. Worryingly, we heard that it can start among children as young as nine. We have recommended that the Welsh Government undertake an age-appropriate review into sexual harassment in primary schools. The Welsh Government had already committed to a similar review in colleges, a crucial piece of work that we are all pleased is under way. I hope that the Minister will be able to reaffirm the Government’s commitment to tackling peer-on-peer sexual harassment among learners here today in the Senedd, and update us on work carried out to date and the timetable for work to come to implement the accepted recommendations.
I would also like to put to the Minister some concerns raised to us by stakeholders when we asked for feedback on the Welsh Government’s response to our report. The first: can the Minister confirm that the Welsh Government recognises the impact of sexual harassment on young people and the long-lasting impact it can have on a child’s life, even if it isn’t categorised as an adverse childhood experience? Second: that the funding provided for training for school staff to report and respond to incidents of sexual harassment does not come at the cost of much-needed training and support for school staff in other areas.
And finally, can the Minister reassure us that young people will be genuinely and directly involved in co-developing the Government's response to peer-on-peer sexual harassment, from working on the national awareness-raising campaign to developing a best-practice set of sessions for schools to teach about the impact of peer-on-peer sexual harassment? I look forward to hearing the contributions from members of the committee and all Members across the Senedd, and from the Minister. Diolch yn fawr.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'd first like to thank our committee Chair, Jayne Bryant, for all her hard work during this report, and, of course, the clerks and staff who have so ably assisted the committee in our work, enabling us to do this important review and so quickly. It was palpably obvious that we needed to do this review quickly to understand the issues and also create awareness of what is happening within this Senedd, in the Welsh Government and across Wales, as to what is going on in our schools—the horrendous nature of it and the fact that it is a problem that is growing and will continue to grow unless we take action now.
Deputy Presiding Officer, Estyn's report on peer-on-peer sexual harassment among secondary school pupils in Wales, '"We don’t tell our teachers"', helped to inform, as our Chair said, and prompt this report. It shockingly found that half of all pupils said they had personal experience of peer-on-peer sexual harassment in some form, and three quarters of all pupils reported seeing other pupils experiencing it, with the most common forms of peer-on-peer sexual harassment during the school day. Sexual harassment's impact on learners can be so severe that it not only impacts their learning, but also their relationships, mental health, life prospects, and, in serious cases, can lead to self-harm and suicide.
At the start of this process, our Chair, Jayne Bryant, met with the police representatives last November, where she learned of the police's particular concern about peer-on-peer sexual harassment, which has become increasingly prevalent, especially online. This coincided with Estyn's preparations to report on its investigation into peer-on-peer harassment among secondary school pupils. The report, published on 8 December 2021, laid bare the enormity of the problem. It's commonplace in schools, and so much so, as our Chair outlined, that it's become normalised, which is extremely worrying.
It's clear from our findings that young people do not feel comfortable reporting their issues to school staff, and schools are struggling to respond in the instances when they do. This harassment is going on beyond school hours, as our Chair also outlined, permeating the lives of young people both online and in school, which was exacerbated by the pandemic, as was shown in our findings. As is said in the foreword, as seriously as we looked at the issue then, as I look back six months later, it is clear to me that we underestimated the enormity of the problem.
Estyn found that 61 per cent of female pupils and 29 per cent of male pupils have experienced sexual harassment—

James Evans MS: Will you take an intervention?

Laura Anne Jones AC: Yes, sure.

James Evans MS: I'd also like to pay tribute to my colleague Jayne Bryant for her excellent chairing of the committee, which I sit on. I just wanted to raise the point that you talk about males who also suffer from sexual harassment. I'm sure you'd agree with me, and others who sit on that committee, that nobody should be afraid to come forward if they are suffering sexual harassment, especially young men who do feel stigmatised if they come forward. I'm sure you'd agree with me that if anybody suffers sexual harassment, no matter what their gender, they should come forward and report it to the right authorities.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Yes, absolutely. A very important point made by my colleague there.
What is worrying also is that the numbers that we've seen, and the evidence that we've gathered, are probably underestimating the problem of what we're seeing. Further still, whilst Estyn did not consider sexual harassment in primary schools or colleges, their inquiry convinced them that it's likely that sexual harassment is common in both. Our committee heard the same as well. Learners with additional learning needs are also at risk, and whilst robust data to reinforce the point has not yet been acquired, they have reason to believe that other groups of learners are at risk too.
The causes of peer-on-peer sexual harassment are complicated. They include deep-rooted societal attitudes, amplified by pornography, social media, and in the recent years, the pandemic. They are embedded cultural matters that stretch far beyond the remit of this committee and the scope of this inquiry. It is a society-wide problem. The Welsh Government, the Senedd, local authorities, schools, charities, parents, families, all of us, need to act collectively to de-normalise these harmful behaviours.
I know that the Minister is here today and will respond to the debate, and I want to ask if he will ensure that the awareness campaign by the Welsh Government is created and implemented in our schools as soon as possible. Only through proper education and awareness will young people truly understand the issue, be able to combat it, and also know how to get the help that they need.
We had excellent suggestions from the young people who gave evidence in our committee, and I see the Chair is nodding, that is definitely worth looking at—their ideas for posters and social media and so on. From the evidence given, and from being aware as a parent of a child who has just recently gone out of junior school, it is clear that cases of peer-on-peer sexual harassment are happening in those years 5 and 6 groups as well, as we had evidence in our committee that proved it. I'd be grateful to the Minister if he could ensure that any campaign does extend to those groups in primary schools, of course, with the content age-appropriate, so that we can nip that behaviour in the bud as soon as possible.
Twenty-four recommendations have been made in the report, covering a range of issues, with the hope that the Welsh Government, Estyn, and other bodies involved receive them and proceed constructively. We, the Welsh Conservatives, welcome the recommendations from the committee and fully support the important demands and recommendations being made to the Welsh Government. We believe that sexual harassment in any form is completely unacceptable, and believe it must be an absolute priority of this Welsh Government to ensure that schools in Wales are no longer an environment where young people are made to feel unsafe, and where sexual harassment and sexual violence can flourish. Thank you.

Sioned Williams MS: What was obvious in the evidence that we heard as a committee was that peer-on-peer sexual harassment was so common that it was accepted as normal behaviour. That was certainly the most striking thing for me as well, and that schools are also struggling to deal with this effectively. The impact, in some cases, affects the well-being, attainment and health of learners. As Laura Anne Jones said, what we heard from the young people themselves was extremely valuable, and their ideas about how we should deal with the problem—simple but obvious things, such as having a poster to explain what's acceptable and what's not acceptable.
Plaid Cymru supports the main recommendations of the report, namely a national campaign to raise awareness, with the experiences and opinions of young people at the heart of it, and calls on the Welsh Government and Estyn to ensure that schools respond better, keep better records, and support pupils better, as well as the need to carry out a review of the situation in our primary schools, because the attitudes that create this problem start to manifest themselves from a young age, and we found evidence of that in our inquiry. The overwhelming majority of those who experience harassment are girls, and LGBTQ+ pupils and other pupils with minority characteristics are also more likely to experience harassment. It was clear from our inquiry that the cause of peer-on-peer sexual harassment is complex, but it was clear that social attitudes, above all else, are responsible for creating the circumstances that lead to these cases within and beyond the school and college gates.
Plaid Cymru fully supports the role of the relationship and sexuality education code within the new curriculum in addressing this, but more needs to be done now for the learners who will not benefit from this attempt to change the understanding of our children for the better in this regard.The support available to those who suffer sexual harassment is fragmented and inconsistent, and the general standard of sex and relationships education is unacceptable in a number of schools. To improve this, we need better training for all school staff in relation to a subject that is difficult for many, and invisible to others. And this is an urgent matter.
It's good that the Government has accepted most of the recommendations, but I would like to draw attention to one that Stonewall Cymru has been emphasising for a while, and that is still not realised, namely, that the Welsh Government should publish its statutory national trans guidelines for schools by January 2023. This report clearly explains why the delay is unacceptable and harmful, and I would therefore like to ask the Minister what progress has been made in this regard.
As the report states, it is not only through our education system that we will get rid of the harmful attitudes that find expression in this sexual harassment. Politics, the media, and society more broadly have a responsibility not to allow or accept misogynistic or sexist attitudes, or any languageor behaviours that demean or exploit identity or gender. We must work together to de-normalise what has been normalised, even among our youngest children. The report and its recommendations are genuinely important if we are serious about creating a society that is equallyhealthy and safe for our young people.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I thank all Members for contributing, not only to today's debate, but also to this difficult report, but a very important report is what it is, led so eloquently by the Chair, Jayne Bryant? But Jayne's committee is not the only committee addressing this particular issue. The Petitions Committee, which I chair, has received a petition, upon the publication of this particular report, and it was submitted by Hanna Andersen with a total of 417 signatures. That's now closed, in terms of collecting signatures, and it will be coming to committee later in the year, but I wanted to take the opportunity to just outline the title of the petition and some of the highlights from the text. The petition is titled, 'Take immediate action to end sexual harassment in ALL Welsh schools, not just secondary schools'. And it goes on to highlight and suggest that evidence shows that harassment is also rife in primary schools and colleges. Now, I note, in the Chair’s opening, that the Welsh Government will be reviewing this in colleges, but the text of the petition actually says,
'We can’t wait for yet more inquiries before taking action. The Welsh Government must ensure that the actions taken from the report are immediately extended to cover all settings, keeping learners safe from sexual harassment throughout education'.
The actual petition draws on the report from Estyn, which Laura Anne Jones has mentioned this afternoon, and I won't go over that. Presiding Officer, I'm obviously very limited in what I can say about the petition and, obviously, what steps committee members and the committee as a whole will decide to take when it comes to this petition, but I did think it was right and a good opportunity to do two things, really: make this debate aware of the strong feelings expressed by petitioners, and also give the Minister some opportunity, perhaps, to respond before the petition comes to my committee, and to take those actions that keep learners safe in all those settings, and not just secondary schools. Diolch.

Joyce Watson AC: I want to thank that committee for this report and all those people who've contributed towards it. I'd particularly like to thank the Everyone's Invited movement for shining a light on the prevalence of peer-on-peer sexual harassment. I was pleased to read that the Welsh Government have agreed to adopt Estyn's definition of sexual harassment, as recommended in the report. As the report points out, peer-on-peer sexual harassment is so prevalent amongst school-age children and young people that it has become normalised. That is extremely worrying. Many children and young people may not even realise that what they're experiencing is sexual harassment. So, having a clear definition is really important. It will help clarify what behaviour is considered as sexual harassment, and I hope that will help pupils feel empowered to report incidents to teachers, parents and any other organisation. I also believe that it will give clarity to those who are being confided in that the individual is being subject to sexual harassment as opposed to bullying, as an example.
The report highlights that many young people felt that there should be more education on the subject, and having a definition will be particularly helpful in delivering education on sexual harassment in schools. And I'd be keen to know if the Welsh Government has had any discussion with other agencies about adopting the same definition, because it would be joined-up working that will drive change.
According to the school list on the Everyone's Invited website, there are testimonials from pupils in every single local authority area in Wales. Moving forward, I believe that it will be essential that there is honest and regular reporting in each local authority area; schools must be actively encouraged to report incidents to the local authority; and there must be support in place for both the school and the pupil reporting peer-on-peer sexual harassment.As we know, a huge proportion of sexual harassment is carried out online. Having access to social media messaging platforms has made it much easier for pupils to both carry out harassment and to be targeted by it. A person being targeted may not even attend the same school or college as the person who is carrying out that behaviour. So, I think it would be hugely beneficial for children and young people to have some clear guidance on how to report incidents in those cases. Working together and with our children and young people is absolutely paramount. Minister, what action will the Welsh Government take to respond to the role that social media and being online has on peer-on-peer sexual harassment?
And finally, it is essential that children are taught and understand how to respect each other, and I know that the new curriculum aims to do that, because if that doesn't happen—and this is really worrying evidence—if this is perceived as normal behaviour, those children will be the adults of tomorrow, and they will be taking forward those harmful views into life with them. So, I thank the committee very much for this, and I look forward to the Minister's response.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I think this is a really important report and I think it's really timely as well. But I think, as Laura Anne Jones said, the level of sexual harassment is so widespread that it really requires a response across society. But it really does underpin the importance of compulsory relationship and sexuality education, because young people need educating on how to keep themselves safe. These bad beasts, which we all find really convenient, parents give their children these things without realising what it gives them access to. I absolutely agree with where you cover the importance of having consistency of approach in relation to mobile phones in school, because there is absolutely no reason why anybody should have a mobile phone on while they're actually supposed to be in lessons. They can keep them in their bags so they've got them when they're going home, but they should not be appearing in school, and they should be confiscated if they appear, in my view.
I think, also, your emphasis on good record-keeping, as well as quality relationship and sexuality education, is absolutely essential, because unless schools have a trauma-informed approach to the behaviour problems that may be exhibited by a young person, or indeed their absence from school, then the school is simply not understanding what is going on here. They have simply got to be ensuring that young people know that the school is a safe place where they can tell people what is happening to them, because the evidence coming from the school where I'm a governor was that, actually, school is the safest place in their lives. Unfortunately, they are receiving harassment both at home and on public transport, for example.
I was very pleased today to get a response to a letter I wrote to Cardiff Bus about the sexual harassment that has been reported on buses, and it was a really excellent letter, saying that they take it very seriously, that their control room controls exactly what's going on on every bus, and that they are going to write to other public transport providers so that we have a whole-system approach in relation to public transport. So, I think that's really welcome.
But anyway, I thank very much the committee for its work on this, and clearly, this is something that is going to be an ongoing piece of work for us.

I call on the Minister for Education and Welsh Language, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would like to thank, if I may, members of the Children, Young People and Education Committee for their report. Inquiries such as this do help to keep these important conversations on top of the agenda, and I would like to mention today some of the steps that we are taking.
First of all, it's important that we don't ignore the power of the voices of children and young people who challenge the practice of the normalisation that we've discussed today—the normalisation of peer-on-peer sexual harassment. That was made particularly clear to me in a recent event staged by the Senedd cross-party group on preventing the sexual abuse of children, where I had an opportunity to hear from young people who have used their personal experiences to generate real change. And that's why it's important that we do ensure that the voices of children and young people are a central part of everything we do. And we are working with partner organisations on the best way of delivering that and agree that we do need to establish an advisory board and that they should have a full role, as Jayne Bryant requested I should do.
I also acknowledge that peer-on-peer sexual harassment is a broader social issue and that parents, carers and families have a key role to play in supporting young people. We will also be developing messages for parents and carers on how to deal with peer-on-peer sexual harassment. Schools and other settings have an important role to play in creating safe environments, helping to ensure that children and young people can enjoy healthy and safe relationships.
Relationships and sexuality education is a statutory requirement for all pupils under the new curriculum. This will play a positive role in safeguarding and helping children and young people to understand behaviours and scenarios that could place them at risk of harm, so that they know what to do to stay safe and how to ask for help.

Jeremy Miles AC: Digital technologies have changed the way we all communicate, and this is especially true of young people, as we've just heard in Jenny Rathbone's contribution. Online sexual harassment encompasses a wide range of behaviours, and I recognise the challenge this presents to schools. I visited a school myself recently that has been working with boys, in that case, on understanding the impact of sharing images online, for example, and another school where girls are raising awareness with others of the online harassment they had received both in and outside school. And again, in response to the point that Joyce Watson and others have made, the 'keeping safe online' area of Hwb provides schools with information, guidance and training opportunities on a wide range of online safety issues. It's vitally important that the education workforce are provided with training and development opportunities to support them with identifying, responding to and reporting peer-on-peer sexual harassment. We'll shortly be piloting a bespoke online sexual harassment training course for education providers, which will be rolled out across Wales.
I was asked about professional learning funding. Schools are already allocated grants that are ring-fenced for professional learning so that that funding isn't at the expense of other sources of funding, as Jayne Bryant asked me to confirm. And they're in receipt of guidance as well on how they can invest in that professional learning. We'll also be reviewing the RSE resources and looking to identify further effective resources that can support the effective delivery of RSE.
There is a clear need for more robust reporting of instances of sexual harassment in education settings. We know that children and young people sometimes lack the confidence to report instances to their teachers, often because they worry that it won't be taken seriously. As such, there is a lack of knowledge of the true scale of the issue, as well as a lack of consistency, as we've been discussing, in the reporting systems, and therefore, in turn, in data collection.
I was dismayed to learn that our LGBTQ+ pupils have substantial personal experiences of verbal homophobic harassment and that this is the most common type of harassment in many schools. Any form of bullying is completely unacceptable, including harassment and bullying due to a person's sexuality or gender identity. Many of us who have grown up gay will have had our own experiences of this in school. It has no place in society, in schools or in the lives of our young people, and we are committed to changing that reality for our LGBTQ+ pupils.We are already making changes to our anti-bullying guidance, 'Rights, respect, equality', in relation to racial harassment and bullying in schools, and we will also consider how that work can be effectively widened to include robust reporting, recording and data collection of peer-on-peer sexual harassment, including homophobic harassment and bullying.
LGBTQ+ inclusion and support will also feature in new guidance to support education settings to embed a culture of inclusion, anti-discriminationand rights. It's clear from our engagement with local authorities, practitioners, teachers and young people that schools need additional guidance about how best to support LGBTQ+ children and young people, particularly those who are trans or non-binary. In response to Sioned Williams's question, the guidance is currently in development and we anticipate publishing it in spring 2023. We know peer-on-peer sexual harassment is not limited to secondary schools and we are clear that action is needed across all settings, as Jack Sargeant referred to in his contribution. A better understanding of the ways this is experienced at different ages is important to ensure we respond with appropriate and tailored interventions, so we've commissioned a thematic review by Estyn into peer-on-peer sexual harassment in the further education sector. That review is currently under way and is due to report in spring of next year. We are committed to using Estyn's recommendations to underpin a specific programme of work to tackle sexual harassment in further education. We also need a greater understanding of children's experiences of gender-based bullying or sexual harassment in primary settings, and we are currently considering the scope of this review.
Whilst further work will help to ensure we have evidence-based policy and interventions, this does not preclude us from acting now. My officials are working with a range of stakeholders, including the police, to develop a multi-agency action plan, and the plan will outline the actions the Welsh Government and our partners will take to prevent and respond to peer-on-peer sexual harassment in education settings. It will complement work on preventing and responding to child sexual abuse, including harmful sexual behaviour and child sexual exploitation, and I can confirm, in response to Joyce Watson's question, that it will adopt on a multi-agency basis the definition of 'sexual harassment' used by Estyn.
The Welsh Government is committed to the vision of ending violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence in Wales. This can have a huge impact on girls and young women, and indeed on all children and young people, which can affect their well-being and peer relationships. On 24 May, we published the VAWDASV national strategy, which increases awareness in children, young people and adults of the importance of safe, equal and healthy relationships, and empowering them to make positive personal choices. We'll be adopting a cross-Government approach to ensuring its success.
Finally, Jayne Bryant asked me to acknowledge the long-lasting impact of peer-on-peer sexual harassment, even where that is outside the definition of ACEs. This was an issue that was identified in the 2020 review. One of the recommendations was for the Government to take a more holistic view to tackling childhood adversity and trauma, and the ACEs plan work that has been under way will be built on an evidence base of ACEs, but recognise other sources of adversity, and that will include peer-to-peer sexual harassment.
I've outlined today just some of the actions we will be taking, but we will continue to listen and to work with our stakeholders and partners to ensure that we evolve our approach to ensure our work has maximum impact.

I call on the Chair of the committee to reply. Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd, and I'd just like to thank all Members who've taken part in this debate today. I think it's been a really important one, and I really appreciate all the contributions.
I'd like to put on record first of all my thanks and the committee's thanks to the clerking and research team, who have been fantastic throughout this inquiry, as well as our outreach team, and I'd like to thank all committee members for their commitment and attention to detail in producing such an important report, and absolutely echo Laura Jones's words about the speed with which we undertook this report, and I think that goes to show the importance the committee put on this particular issue. So, I'd like to thank all Members for the work that they've done.
Also to say that James made a really important point—James Evans—about this is a matter for everybody, and that everybody affected should come forward, and our report is titled 'Everybody's affected' for that reason, and I think Estyn told us that 29 per cent of male secondary school pupils experienced harassment. Although lower than girls, that's still almost a third of all boys, which is clearly unacceptable.
Also, just to reiterate one of Sioned's points about it being such an urgent matter, and that the new curriculum sadly won't help any child currently in year 8 or above. I know I mentioned that in my opening remarks, but just to reiterate that message to the Minister.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Jayne Bryant AC: On the points that Jack Sargeant made, I'd firstly like to thank the petitioner for the important points raised in the petition, but perhaps it would be helpful if I just help to clarify why the committee did not feel able to extend our recommendations to primary schools. We know, and we heard in our inquiry time and again, that sexual harassment is likely to begin in primary schools, but the evidence we gathered over the course of the inquiry did not give a clear enough picture of the prevalence or the nature of sexual harassment in primary schools to make a well-informed recommendation to the Welsh Government about how to address it. The committee felt that addressing sexual harassment in the primary sector presents many different challenges to addressing it in the secondary sector, so we didn't feel confident as a committee in extending our recommendations, which are based on research on secondary-age children, to children who are much younger. So, I hope that helps to clarify why our recommendations didn't include primary school children, but, obviously, we're really pleased that that work is going on.
We heard from Joyce about, and the Minister also mentioned, the voice of young people. We did hear from young people about the solutions and what they felt needed to change. We received over 100 responses to our online survey, and those views really did shape our recommendations. The committee's inquiry also drew on the many personal anonymised testimonies on the Everyone's Invited website, and Estyn's primary evidence, which was the foundation of our inquiry. So, just to give an idea—you know, we really want to put young people's voices at the heart of everything we do.
So, I'd like to thank everybody who contributed to our inquiry. The written and oral evidence we received from everybody, the academics, charities, schools and other public bodies, was exceptionally high quality. I'd also like to place on record my thanks to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language and to the Minister for Social Justice for their constructive engagement with our inquiry and their positive response to our report. I'm really pleased that the Minister's been able to answer some of those questions put by outsiders as well to our recommendations. That's really positive; thank you.
I also say in the Chair's foreword to the report that we've asked a lot of the Welsh Government, and we have. We've asked a lot of the Welsh Government because of all the testimonies from young Welsh people on the Everybody's Invited website, submitted by pupils of schools across Wales and beyond, because of what children in schools across Wales told Estyn, and because what children in schools across Britain have been telling anyone who asks them for years and years. Schools can't be held responsible for sexual harassment. We must take responsibility for denormalising the harmful behaviours and assumptions that underpin it. But they are ideal places for that process of denormalisation to begin, and are sites for early intervention and effective, high-quality support for learners who have been harassed. My fellow committee members and I will pay close attention to the Welsh Government's implementation of the recommendations in our report to do everything we can to make sure that happens.
I've saved my biggest thanks for last. To the many young people across Wales who responded to our survey: thank you for sharing your views on what needed to change. To Ebonie, Glenn, Jake and Sophie and your lecturers: thank you for your hard work and expertise in analysing our engagement responses and producing a video summarising those findings. We appreciated your recommendations to us, and, really, all Members should see that and share it as widely as possible. As Laura Jones said in her contribution, they really challenged us when we had some ideas, so we know that their voices are so important in the work that goes on through Welsh Government now. And to our Welsh Youth Parliamentarian Ffion Williams, who so bravely, articulately and convincingly spoke to ITV Wales about her own experiences of sexual harassment in an interview following the launch of our report.
To children and young people across Wales more generally: I know this isn’t the end of the conversation, and that change will not happen overnight. But you have every right to expect that we, as your elected representatives, will do more to prevent sexual harassment in schools and colleges. It is not normal, it is not okay and it has to stop. Diolch.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

9. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Stroke

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

The next item 9 is the Welsh Conservatives debate on stroke. I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion. Mark Isherwood.

Motion NDM8113 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that World Stroke Day is 29 October 2022.
2. Recognises the urgent response required to prevent danger to life for people suffering a stroke.
3. In accordance with Standing Order 17.2, instructs the Health and Social Care Committee to conduct a review into the benefits and challenges of recategorising strokes as 'red: immediately life-threatening calls' under the Clinical Response Model.

Motion moved.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Our motion today proposes that this Senedd notes that World Stroke Day is 29 October 2022, recognises the urgent response required to prevent danger to life for people suffering a stroke, and instructs the Senedd's Health and Social Care Committee to conduct a review into the benefits and challenges of recategorising strokes as red calls, immediately life-threatening, under the clinical response model.
World Stroke Day takes place on 29 October every year. It provides an opportunity to raise awareness of the serious nature and high rates of stroke, and to talk about ways in which we can reduce the burden of stroke through better public awareness of the risk factors and signs of stroke. It is also an opportunity to advocate for actions by decision makers at global, regional and national levels, which are essential to improve stroke prevention, access to acute treatment and support for survivors and care givers. For 2021 and 2022, the campaign is focused on raising awareness of the signs of stroke and the need for timely access to quality stroke treatment.
Across the UK, a stroke happens every five minutes. An estimated 7,400 people a year in Wales experience a stroke—the fourth leading cause of death in Wales. A further 70,000 stroke survivors live in Wales and, without early intervention and diagnosis, significant harm to the patient, or chance of death, subsequentially increases—this is substantially.
According to the Stroke Association, there are three different types of stroke: ischaemic, the most common type of stroke, found in about 85 per cent of cases, caused by a blockage cutting off the blood supply to the brain; haemorrhagic, caused by bleeding in or around the brain and apparent in 15 per cent of cases—this is the most severe type of stroke; and the transient ischaemic attack, also known as a mini stroke, where the symptoms only last for a short amount of time.
Strokes are a conditions where the golden hour is vital. Certain acute conditions, including stroke, have 60 minutes to receive definitive care. Any later, and harm, including brain damage, physical disability and mortality, can increase significantly. Quality standards for strokes in adults, published by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, also highlight that patients with acute stroke should receive brain imaging within one hour of arrival at hospital should they meet any indicators for immediate imaging. NICE and the Stroke Association recommend the use of thrombolysis, or clot-busting medicine, within four and a half hours of an ischaemic stroke. According to NHS advice, alteplase, the medication used for treatment, is most effective if started as soon as possible after the stroke occurs, and certainly within four and a half hours. The NHS further notes that medication is not generally recommended if more than four and a half hours have passed, as it's not clear how beneficial it is when used after this time, and that it is vital that a brain scan is done to confirm diagnosis of an ischaemic stroke, as the medicine can make bleeding that occurs in haemorrhagicstrokes worse.
Latest Sentinel Stroke National Audit Programme data, or SSNAP data, showing hospital performance on stroke management across England and Wales, highlights a decline in appropriate care for stroke patients. Once arrived in hospital, stroke patients must be scanned within an hour, according to NICE, yet three hospitals in Wales took longer than this target time to scan a patient.
The SSNAP data, which scores Welsh NHS responses to key indicators, such as time to scan, time to treatment and time to admission to stroke units, highlights some concerning trends in Welsh hospitals. Their scores range from A, or hospital meets the highest standards for almost all patients, to E, or hospital does not meet the highest standards for almost all patients. The latest overall scores for Welsh hospitals were D for all hospitals apart from Withybush, which scored a C, with, for example, all three district hospitals in north Wales scoring E for admission to stroke units in their latest disclosed figures.

Mark Isherwood AC: The latest SSNAP data also shows that it takes on average six hours and 35 minutes between stroke onset and arrival at hospital in Wales, compared to three hours and 41 minutes in England and two hours and 41 minutes in Northern Ireland. This impacts on the time it takes for patients to receive a scan, with patients in Wales being scanned just over eight hours after their symptom onset, compared to 4.4 hours in England and 3.3 in Northern Ireland.
Wales's current clinical response model classifies stroke as an amber response call, which is serious but not immediately life threatening. Since 2015, amber calls have had no target time, meaning that patients can often be waiting several hours for an ambulance to respond. Although the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust confirmed that a differing response will be made for haemorrhagic strokes, stating in 2020 that they will often tip into the red category due to their seriousness, these types of stroke are in the minority, making up, as I said, 15 per cent of stroke cases.
Further, the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust stated that although there were no target times, the ideal response times for amber 1 and 2 categories were around 20 minutes and 30 to 40 minutes respectively. Given the seriousness of ischaemic strokes, which make up the majority of cases, and the deterioration of amber response times, this should, therefore, be revisited.
The last review of amber response calls, conducted in 2018, found that the clinical response model is a valid and safe way of delivering ambulance services, and that the length of time waiting for an ambulance response in the amber category does not appear to correlate with worse outcomes. However, by 2020, and pre pandemic, the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust stated that amber performance remains a concern.
Since COVID-19, amber response times have deteriorated significantly, with a median waiting time of one hour and 35 minutes in September—last month—2022. Comparing Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust amber 1 and 2 category ideal times, just 12.6 per cent of overall amber times arrived within 20 minutes, and 25.2 per cent within 40 minutes. A staggering 64.3 per cent—nearly two thirds—took over an hour to respond.
The English NHS recategorised ambulance emergency target calls in 2017, with stroke categorised as 'emergency', with a target time of 18 minutes and 90 per cent of calls in 40 minutes. In September 2022, the mean response time for category 2 ambulances in England was 47 minutes and 59 seconds.
Given the pandemic and subsequent pressures on both ambulance and accident and emergency departments, it is, therefore, imperative that the suitability of amber calls for stroke patients in Wales is revisited. As of April to June 2022, less than half of stroke patients in Wales—46.1 per cent—were arriving at hospital by ambulance, down from 75 per cent in January to March 2021.
Although the Stroke Association does not support recategorisation of amber calls, stating,
'It is better for stroke patients to get the most appropriate response vehicle'
—an ambulance that can take them to hospital, rather than simply the first one that is available, which may be unable to get them to hospital to receive the treatment they need—it supports a committee inquiry into ambulance response times for stroke in Wales, which would examine the issue in more detail. They add that the review should look into the experiences of stroke patients from call to treatment, to understand how the pathway can be improved.
The Welsh Conservatives believe that the Stroke Association should not be forced to choose between a quick response by an inappropriate vehicle and a slow response by a life-saving ambulance, and that the system should be able to be adapted to ensure that an ambulance is sent for a suspected stroke, subject to the modelling necessary. It has been suggested that a few ambulances should be attached, for example, to the stroke medicine department through a direct telephone line, and emphasised that rehabilitation should start as soon as the patient arrives in hospital.
The Stroke Association has also called for a renewed FAST campaign by Public Health Wales. The FAST campaign—face, arms, speech, time—was launched UK wide in 2009 to improve awareness of stroke symptoms and urge those experiencing these to call 999 as soon as possible. Acting fast gives the person having a stroke the best chance of survival and recovery. But although the FAST campaign was run in both England and Northern Ireland in 2021, it was last run in Wales in 2018. Analysis of the campaign in England found that, after being shown the materials from 2021, nearly two thirds of those at risk mentioned needing to act as a campaign message, and two thirds mentioned a need to call 999 or ask for help. Modelling found that the campaign is highly cost-effective, and since launch in 2009 it has delivered 4,000 additional thrombolysis treatments, providing 1,137 quality-adjusted life years, and a return on investment of £8.98 for every £1 spent.
Throughout the pandemic, Welsh Conservatives have been constructively calling on the Welsh Government for action in numerous areas to help the Welsh NHS recover from COVID-19. As Wales and the NHS seek to come out of the pandemic, it's critical that a cross-party approach is embraced to the fullest by Welsh Government. Diolch yn fawr.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call the Minister for health to formally move amendment 1.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete point 3 and replace with:
Notes the recent establishment of the Stroke Programme Board to drive service improvement and deliver improved stroke outcomes for people in Wales.

Amendment 1 moved.

Eluned Morgan AC: Formally.

Jenny Rathbone. No, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Sorry, Jenny. I caught you slightly by surprise there. I caught myself by surprise as well. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and I thank the Conservatives for bringing this subject before us today. I'm not sure about the motion in its entirety. We'll come to that in due course, but in terms of the central point, what we have in clauses 1 and 2 in the motion, yes, it is World Stroke Day on Saturday 29 October, and it's important to take every possible opportunity to remind ourselves of the impact that strokes have within our families, within our communities, and what we can do and what the Government can do to ensure that our response is as strong and as effective as it can be.
Clause 2, of course, we recognise that we need an urgent response when somebody has a stroke in order to try to influence the best outcomes for that person. Stroke is the fourth main cause of death in Wales. The survival rates have improved, and that is to be welcomed as technologies worldwide improve. It is important to note, however, that your chance of survival is much greater if you don't live in poverty, and this is another one of those areas where health inequality has a genuine impact on your chance of survival if the worst happens.
But we do know that there is much more that we need to do to improve the service that is provided in Wales after a stroke. We need to ensure that survivors do receive better support, receive their six-monthly reviews, and receive services to rebuild their lives in some ways. There is a need for physiotherapists, occupational therapists, and so on, to ensure that people have the necessary support after suffering a stroke.
Now, there is also the element that we see in the motion of urgency—the need for a response as soon as possible when a stroke happens. We see the statistics that show us that, on average, it takes six and a half hours between the start of a stroke and reaching hospital in Wales, and that is significantly longer than what we see in other parts of these isles. I do hope that the Minister, in her comments, will recognise that that's not good enough and that we need to improve that performance significantly.
I will draw attention here, in terms of a swift response, to the fact that the Wales air ambulance notes on their website that stroke response is one of the services that they offer. That is noted very clearlyon their website. I draw attention to that, of course, because of the concerns in parts of Wales—in mid Wales and the north-west in particular—that the ideas on the table in terms of reorganising air ambulance services mean that people in the hardest-to-reach areas are going to have to wait longer for A&E to reach them, because, of course, that's what the air ambulance is.
I'll turn now to clause 3. I do see this, I have to say, as a strange clause. I can see that the Conservative spokesperson on health and care is not in his seat this afternoon, for whatever reason, but what we have is a proposal by his party ordering the health committee to look at issues relating to stroke and the response to stroke. As a member of the health committee, I see that as a strange thing. I'm perfectly happy for the health committee—if we can make time for it; maybe we can have a conversation with the Chair about that—to look at that area, but I do see it as an odd process that that is being presented in this way.
I'll turn quickly to the amendment from the Government. I have had an interesting experience in preparing for this session today, because I can't find any information at all in terms of what the stroke programme board that the Government refers to here is, which it says is going to make a great contribution to the response to stroke in Wales. There is no information available anywhere as to whether it exists and who is a member of that board, so I'm looking forward greatly to the Minister educating us on that. But it does say to us that where action is being taken, the Welsh Government should explain that. Even charities couldn't tell us what that board was. I'll listen very carefully. But we can all be in agreement that we need to do more to ensure that people who do suffer from stroke in Wales have urgent support, and the best possible support.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful to my colleagues for tabling this motion, especially given that this Saturday marks World Stroke Day 2022. As Mark Isherwood mentioned in his opening remarks, on average, 7,400 people a year in Wales will experience a stroke, the fourth leading cause of death in this country. Therefore, the importance of fast-acting, excellent-quality stroke services cannot and should not be underestimated, not just in supporting and treating patients, but within the wider context of pressures within the health and social care system.
But for this to be the case, the entire system needs to be overhauled. We have heard this afternoon about the importance of those first 60 minutes post stroke. In that time, treatment intervention can be the difference between a successful recovery or irreversible damage. And if you live in a rural area like Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, then the attainability of this target is one of huge concern. Since 2015, stroke emergencies have had no target time, meaning that patients displaying FAST symptoms can often wait several hours for an ambulance to respond to their call. And as we've heard during the debate, stroke patients do not have hours to wait.
Not only does the Government need to review its clinical response model, but it also needs to ensure that there are quality services in place to support an individual through their stroke treatment action plan. On both fronts, unfortunately, this isn't currently happening. Over the past few weeks, I've had the pleasure of meeting with both Carmarthen Stroke Group and Stroke Association UK on the Senedd steps to discuss the effectiveness of the FAST acronym, the importance of quality stroke services, and the administration of quick and fast access to healthcare.
However, having reviewed the most recent SSNAP data for west Wales—the sentinel stroke national audit programme—where services are rated from A to E depending on their quality, it is clear that stroke services across the country have not received the focus and funding they require. SSNAP data for Withybush Hospital categorises four of their six ratings as outside the acceptable green zone, with their 'admission to stroke unit' rating scoring an E, the lowest possible grade. At Glangwili Hospital, both 'admission to stroke unit' and thrombolysis services were rated an E. And at Prince Philip Hospital in Llanelli, three services—stroke admissions, thrombolysis and occupational therapy services—received, again, an E, Minister. I'm sure you'll agree that simply isn't good enough, and this is happening in our region as Members.
Let us make no mistake: the situation I have described this afternoon is certainly not the fault of our committed and dedicated NHS staff; this is the responsibility of the Government. But if we are to give any stroke patient the best chance of recovery, then we must ensure that stroke services across the board are the very best that they can be. This is our opportunity to overhaul stroke services in Wales and ensure that every person, no matter what their postcode, has excellent access to top-class services, which can take the necessary interventions to prohibit the irreversible damage of severe strokes. With that, I would urge all colleagues in this Chamber to vote in favour of this motion this afternoon. Diolch.

James Evans MS: My constituents have a challenging relationship with stroke services, unlike those in many other parts of Wales, due to us not having a district general hospital in Powys. The rural nature of Brecon and Radnorshire and the lack of stroke service provision makes treatment more difficult for my constituents, and many of them have to travel across the border into Herefordshire and Worcestershire to receive treatment. A total of 150 people in Powys were admitted to hospital in England following a stroke in 2021-22. Think of the difference that it could've made to those people if they could've been treated closer to home. For a long time, as the Minister knows, I've been calling for an acute stroke unit within Brecon and Radnorshire, to ensure that people get timely treatment in our communities. This would be a massive boost to the people in my area who are desperately in need of modern and effective stroke provision.
With strokes, the seconds and the minutes matter. People from Powys having to go across the border for treatment is an unnecessary burden in time for those people who have suffered. The lengthy travel times due to the lack of a hospital, as I've said, in Powys, make death and disability more likely, because time saves lives. I was reassured, I think it was last week, to hear, health Minister, that you had plans for regional stroke services that are being worked on, but my residents need to know how many people in those will be able to stay in Wales for treatment instead of going into England. Because the closer we can have stroke treatment to home, the better, and I think I'd like to hear more clarity from you aroundwhen we're going to see those coming to fruition.
With stroke being the fourth leading cause of death in Wales, it's essential that people in mid Wales have good, timely treatment and they are not passed over. Stroke provision must be a priority, and when we look at the Wales-wide ambulance response times, it seems to me and others that this is not currently a priority for the Welsh Government. That's why Welsh Conservatives are calling for a review into the benefits and the challenges of recategorising strokes as red calls instead of amber. That's something that I hope the health committee can look into. This would be a recognition of the huge challenges that stroke poses and a big step on the way to dealing with the problem, which will get worse before it gets better. Diolch, Llywydd.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I think this is an important debate, because, as has already been acknowledged, it is the fourth biggest killer, so it's clearly something we need to get right. But I would caution James Evans on the idea that we could have a district general hospital in Powys that would provide you with the quality of care that you need when you have a stroke. [Interruption.] If I misunderstood you, I'm happy to take an intervention.

James Evans MS: I didn't say we needed a district general hospital in Powys; I'd like to see one, but I recognise the challenges of doing that. What I would like to see is actually more of those services being delivered, like a stroke care centre, in our little cottage hospitals or in our minor injury units, so actually we can have those services closer to home so people don't have to travel over 40 minutes in a car.

Jenny Rathbone AC: It might well be possible, in a cottage hospital, to deliver the sort of rehabilitation services that you may have in mind, but it isn't going to be possible to deliver clinical excellence unless you've got the critical mass of patients to justify it. It is really, really important that we have stroke units that are available to all our populations within a reasonable driving distance, but there's no doubt that, if you're having a stroke, you need to go to a stroke unit, end of story. That is what the ambulance should be doing—and I'm hoping that the Minister will reassure us that that is what they are doing—because it means that survival is infinitely more likely and the limitations on any disability much more likely.
This is an important debate, and I think it's a good use of World Stroke Day on Saturday to highlight this issue. But I have to say, I'm struggling a little bit in terms of the amount of information that we have been given by the Stroke Association.I was quite concerned when I got the information that my stroke unit for my population in Cardiff and the Vale has an overall score of D. But, when I asked for more information to understand exactly what was going on, I was just referred to the methodology, the alphabet soup; this is not helpful. I need a layperson's description as to what we need to do. And whilst I acknowledge that the physiotherapy services, the speech and language services, occupational therapy, are really good, and the scanning services as well, the key issue is how quickly can you get thrombolysis when you first have a stroke.
That brings us back to the amendment. I'm not convinced, I'm afraid, that recategorising strokes as red, in the same category as immediately-life-threatening calls, is the right approach at this point, because, brutally, if we add stroke to the red list, then in the context of today's stretched services, I fear that that would mean that other people on the red list would die. I don't want to be alarmist about this, but I think—. I acknowledge, however, that the Tories' motion is taking a precautionary approach by suggesting that we refer this to the Health and Social Care Committee to review the benefits of recategorising it, but there's nothing stopping the Health and Social Care Committee from doing that anyway, if they wish to.
I think more important for me is really understanding how the stroke implementation group, which was established in 2013, has been approaching its work to bring all stroke units in Wales up to the standard that is required, and how this stroke implementation board, which was announced in a written statement in September last year, is actually going to change things. Because I don't know anything further about the stroke implementation board. Like Rhun, I've had difficulty finding out about it. I think this is a really important debate, and clearly one that our constituents want us to pay attention to. But, I do think that we need to be clear that in order to have high-quality stroke units, we need to have them not in every district hospital; we need to have stroke units geographically spread out so that the whole population is able to get to one, but it has to be with the justification for the population of that area if you want the quality that everybody is going to want if it's their loved one or their constituent who is having a stroke.
I look forward to hearing the Minister's contributions. I want to hear a little bit more about what Dr Shakeel Ahmad, who is our Wales national clinical lead for stroke, has been doing. I also note that there is a UK conference in Liverpool at the end of November, which I hope some of our Welsh clinicians will be going to, because this is something that is just as important for people the other side of our border. There's been huge improvements in the way that stroke patients are cared for, but, clearly, there's always more to learn.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: It has already been pointed out that an estimated 7,000 people a year in Wales experience a stroke, and that can be the equivalent of a whole town having one every year. It takes on average, as has been said, 6 hours 35 minutes between stroke onset and arrival at hospital in Wales. Compare that with 3 hours 41 minutes in England, and 2 hours 41 minutes in Northern Ireland. There's been mention of this need for that golden hour. Some years ago, a relative of mine experienced a stroke, and in those days it was almost expected that it was going to be classed as urgent.
The sentinel stroke national audit programme data, which scores Welsh NHS responses to key indicators such as time to scan, time to treatment, time to admission to stroke units, highlights some concerning trends in north Wales hospitals. With the worst possible score of E, Wrexham and Ysbyty Glan Clwyd have seen no improvement in their SSNAP scores of D since 2021. In fact, Ysbyty Glan Clwyd took longer than an hour on average to scan stroke patients. When considering that stroke is the fourth leading cause of death, it comes as no surprise that I have constituents who really havea heightened level of anxiety about whether an ambulance would turn up on time and, if it did, how, then, would they proceed to have a scan.
Of the four-hour target for patients to be admitted to a stroke unit, just one hospital in Wales was within that timeframe, and according to the Stroke Association, the time it takes for patients to arrive at a hospital does impact on the time it takes patients to receive a scan. Patients in Wales are being scanned just over eight hours after their symptom onset. So, we've got to get patients into hospital faster and we need speedier scans.
Since 2015, this Welsh Labour Government has downgraded suspected stroke ambulance response times to amber, with no target time for arrival. England's ambulance services, which have a specific category for suspected stroke patients, had a mean response time of 47 minutes and 59 seconds. Here in Wales, amber calls are taking on average, one hour and 35 minutes to arrive with patients—that says 'on average'; I can tell you that I know of examples really recently, where, unfortunately, a constituent of mine passed away because, well, it was just too late. Any longer than 60 minutes, and harm, including brain damage, physical disability and mortality can increase significantly. By 2020, and pre pandemic, even the Welsh Ambulance Service NHS Trust stated that amber performance remains a concern. So, it's therefore reasonable to vote to instruct the Health and Social Care Committee to conduct a review into the benefits and challenges of recategorising strokes as red—immediately life-threatening calls under the clinical response model. And I speak as an elected Member where we have a greater number of old people, obviously, I'm speaking on behalf of my constituents in Aberconwy. That will provide a fair opportunity to hear from health boards and professionals, enabling this Welsh Parliament and your Government to make the best decision that is truly also the best for patients.
So, I've also got a question and an explanation, Minister, as to why there is no thrombectomy specialist in north Wales. There are only two employed, and they are both in Cardiff. Betsi Cadwaladr sends patients to Walton Hospital. As outlined by the Stroke Association's Saving Brains campaign, whilst thrombectomy could significantly reduce the chance of disabilities, like paralysis or blindness, it could save the NHS £47,000 over five years, per patient. Less than 1 per cent of stroke patients in Wales received a thrombectomy in 2021. So, it's not good enough. Surely, between us, we can agree to work with health boards to achieve better than that and establish a workforce plan so that north Wales has its own specialist too.
Yet again, we have fewer services than the south, and we're having to depend on England, but I will say that Walton is exceptionally good. Nonetheless, we've had devolution for nearly 25 years. Minister, as you can imagine, this is a debate that's very close to my colleagues on the Welsh Conservative benches, but it's also close to the hearts and minds of my constituents in Aberconwy, and many across Wales. I know that you listen to what we say here; please, on this one, really study the motion and do what you can to help our stoke victims. Thank you.

Natasha Asghar AS: Unfortunately, it doesn't give me any grace to say that I actually know only too well just how serious a stroke can be. Not too long ago my mother actually had a stroke and, thankfully, by acting swiftly, we managed to limit the amount of damage it caused. What started off as a headache—in her words, a migraine and flu-like symptoms—quickly turned into something really sinister. And with my mum being rushed to hospital with three clots having formed on her brain, thankfully, after a two-week stay in hospital and really, really extensive physiotherapy and speech therapy, which went on for months, she made a pretty good recovery. If we hadn't acted quickly and got her to hospital on time, the outcome would have been completely different, and I'm under no illusion here that there's a chance that she would be dead today.
Everyone knows that the quicker you act when someone is having a stroke, the better. We've all heard about the acronym FAST—face, arms, speech and time—when it comes to acting upon a stroke, and it's worth remembering, and I only became aware of this after my mother had hers, that there is that golden hour, which many of my colleagues have spoken about today when it comes to having a stroke. The likelihood of having serious or irreversible harm, in fact, during a stroke hugely increases if the patient doesn't receive definitive treatment within the first 60 minutes. However, shockingly, in Wales, it takes more than six hours and 30 minutes on average between stroke onset and arrival in hospital. In comparison, it takes just over three hours and 40 minutes in England, and two hours and 41 minutes in Northern Ireland.
With an estimated 7,400 people a year having a stroke in Wales, it's vital that we do all that we can to ensure that more patients are seen as quickly as possible, as it is a matter of life and death. Many 999 calls for a suspected stroke in Wales arrive beyond the golden hour, since the Labour Government here downgraded suspected stroke ambulance services to amber. Like I said earlier, acting fast is crucial, and I cannot emphasise how grateful I am to the paramedics who came to our aid, and those who continue to help those who experience a stroke. But with amber calls in Wales taking on average an hour and 35 minutes to arrive to patients, let's be honest, it's not that fast at all.
Education is key to improving outcomes for people who are suffering from a stroke. There needs to be a huge push to make sure that people know how important it is to seek medical attention if they are showing symptoms of a stroke. Many years ago, when I worked for the regional Member for South Wales East, he organised a stroke event for all of his constituents with the help of and in association with the Stroke Association—if that made sense—to make the public aware of the symptoms and challenges that one experiences when having a stroke. It was a huge success and really appreciated by the residents of south-east Wales, but sadly the Senedd does not allow such events to take place any more, which is a real, real shame.
A review into the benefits and challenges of making strokes red calls instead of amber is needed, Minister, and needed urgently. I really hope that Labour Ministers and colleagues here in the Senedd today will listen to what I and other Members have said today and act quickly to save lives. Thank you.

The Minister for health to contribute to the debate.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Firstly, I want to thank the Conservatives for bringing this important issue to the Chamber today, and all Members who've contributed to the debate. I've listened carefully to all speakers, and there have been many important points made. Stroke, as Mark Isherwood stated, is the fourth leading cause of death in Wales, and has a significant long-term impact on the survivors, and there are 70,000 of them in Wales.
Ambulance response to stroke is one element of stroke care in Wales. Other important elements include how we transform our model for stroke services across the system, and public awareness of stroke symptoms. The Welsh ambulance service recognises stroke as a potentially life-threatening condition, and always aims to respond as quickly as possible, and I agree that the current performance is not good enough. But for stroke patients, it's not only time that's important; it's also about making sure that they get the most appropriate response and rapid access to the right specialist services.
Stroke patients might experience any combination of a range of physical and neurological symptoms. It is these symptoms that will prompt the 999 call, and it is the relative severity of these symptoms that will inform how the call is categorised by the ambulance service. The Welsh ambulance service keeps the prioritisation of calls under ongoing review through its clinical prioritisation assessment software group, which is made up of senior clinicians and operational managers. The group has a planned, regular cycle of reviews, but will also make ad hoc reviews in response to emerging clinical evidence. This is a similar process to the other UK trusts, and aims to ensure that patients continue to receive the most appropriate response to meet their clinical need, based on the latest clinical guidance.
The clinical response model was designed by leading clinicians, and decisions on the prioritisation of calls must always be made by clinicians on the basis of the latest clinical evidence. It is not for members of the committee, nor anyone else without that expert knowledge, to determine what happens on such matters. When the clinical response model was first introduced in 2015, it was predicated on an average of 5 per cent of calls being categorised as red. Would the committee also be interested in telling the ambulance services what other conditions will be downgraded from current red? I very much doubt it.Can I be clear? The Welsh Government did not downgrade suspected stroke ambulance response times to amber. All calls were previously given the same level of priority, irrespective of the clinical severity. So, prior to the changes, theoretically, cardiac arrest was given the same response time as toothache. So, the ambulance service introduced four new categories to ensure that people who needed a faster response received a faster response. As I say, the target was for 5 per cent of all calls to be categorised as red. But recently, red calls have been as high as 10.5 per cent in recent months—more than twice what the model was designed for, and a clear indicator that the ambulance service is increasingly responding to people with more complex and acute conditions.
Mark Isherwood suggested that England's ambulance service, which has a specific category for suspected stroke patients, had a mean response time of 47 minutes, except this isn't true. There is no separate or designated category for stroke in England. Although the categories and codes within these categories do differ between the Welsh and English models, calls are prioritised in the same way in both models. That is, on relative clinical severity. They, like us, do not have a hard-and-fast rule for all strokes.
We know that we need to do more to improve the timeliness of ambulance responses to all calls, and we have a national ambulance improvement plan in place to increase ambulance capacity, improve the responsiveness to people with time-sensitive complaints, and reduce ambulance patient handover delays. We've invested £3 million to enable WAST, the Welsh Ambulance Service NHS Trust, to recruit 100 more front-line staff, and that's on top of the 263 they've recruited in the past two years. I've also been extremely clear in my expectations for health boards to address handover delays, which have a significant impact on the availability of ambulances to respond to calls in the community.

Mark Isherwood AC: Will you give way?

Eluned Morgan AC: I shall.

Mark Isherwood AC: Just to clarify, you said, I think, that I had said that there was a special category for strokes in England and there was a 47-minute—. No, what I said was that they've recategorised strokes as an emergency in category 2, and category 2 collectively had a 47 minute and 59 second response time.

Eluned Morgan AC: So, my point absolutely stands, which is that there is no hard-and-fast rule for strokes, neither in England nor in Wales.
So, the McClelland review, which prompted the change to the clinical model response highlighted that the Welsh ambulance service has been subject to more reviews than any other part of the NHS in Wales and that this scrutiny contributes to the issues that the organisation faces. It concluded that a constant cycle of reviews can be disruptive, counterproductive and likely to have little chance of significant improvement for patients.
The amber review undertaken in 2018 carried out by clinicians, found no clinical evidence to support the recategorisation of stroke calls into the red category as a whole. It would not be justified for yet another review of the ambulance service to prompt a change until there's a body of evidence to support such a change.

Eluned Morgan AC: I want to turn now to the other elements I mentioned. The stroke quality statement was published in September 2021. It sets out 20 quality benchmarks for stroke services. In June 2022, the chief executives of the health boards supported the establishment of a national stroke programme board, which will build on the work of the stroke action group. It will also ensure consistency in terms of the establishment of regional stroke centres, which used to be called acute stroke units, and regional stroke units. This board is now established. The first meeting was held on 13 October. It is chaired by Mark Hackett, the chief operating officer of Swansea Bay University Health Board. The members include senior representatives of health boards, the ambulance trust, the office of the commissioners of ambulance services in Wales, the Stroke Association and community health organisations and Welsh Government. The board is supported by a core team, including the national clinical lead for stroke in Wales, Dr Shakeel Ahmad. This is the mechanism that will oversee and motivate the transformation that we need to see for a sustainable stroke service in Wales, including looking into thrombectomy. It will ensure that we reach national standards and improve outcomes for patients who have suffered stroke.
I heard Rhun ap Iorwerth and Jenny's calls that we need to improve communication with the public on this board. We all have a role to play, and the Welsh Government welcomes all opportunities to raise awareness of stroke so that people are familiar with the symptoms and can respond quickly. I had a meeting with the Stroke Association a fortnight ago, and wework closely with them to promote World Stroke Day on 29 October, and we are looking at other opportunities to raise awareness of the symptoms of stroke, including the FAST campaign. To conclude, I'd like to assure the Chamber that improving outcomes for stroke is a priority for Welsh Government, and I encourage the Chamber to support the motion, with the amendment proposed by Lesley Griffiths. Thank you.

Gareth Davies to respond to the debate.

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. It’s a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon and to, indeed, close the debate. I’m quite passionate about strokes, really, because it was what I did for a living before I was elected to the Senedd. We speak about some of the most well-known symptoms of stroke. It can include slurred speech, losing strength on one side of the body; they’re the most well-known symptoms. But if you really want to see some of the range of symptoms of strokes, then I’d urge anyone to spend a day on a stroke unit or a rehab facility to see the actual reality of some of these cases. In the worst situations, people can lose their mobility, they can lose all their freedoms and independence, they need feeding, they lose all their strength to do their own personal care, they need showering, they need bathing. They’re the worst things. And 24, 48 hours before that, they lived a normal life, like we all do now, and to go from that, to that extreme, is why I stress the importance this afternoon of this early intervention, the thrombolysis, the physiotherapy and getting those things in place as soon as possible so it can maximise the chances of success in rehabilitation. Sometimes it can’t be done, that’s the reality of it; sometimes stroke cases are just too acute to achieve any rehabilitation, but, where we can do that, we should really be investing in allied health professionals, physiotherapy, occupational therapy and thrombolysis to make sure that we’re giving people the best chance to have a full recovery and restore some independence and dignity in their lives.
Mark Isherwood opened up the debate, highlighting that it’s World Stroke Day on Saturday, the twenty-ninth, and stressed the importance of having public awareness across all levels of the health system. Rhun ap Iorwerth mentioned it’s the fourth main cause of death, and that was echoed by many other contributions this afternoon, and, again, the importance of allied health professionals in the healthcare system to maximise the potential of rehabilitation. Sam Kurtz mentioned some of the local things in his constituency, including the Carmarthen Stroke Group, and some of the local stats at Withybush and Glangwili hospitals, and then James Evans mentioned his constituency and some of the problems in Brecon and Radnorshire of his local residents having to go over the border into England, where maybe there could be some more local provision so that people in Powys can get the treatment that they deserve.
I didn’t agree with Jenny Rathbone’s statement on not being included on the red list. It just speaks for itself; it’s the fourth biggest killer, Jenny, so that speaks for itself in terms of its importance of getting this as a priority.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I think you’re trying to compare apples and pears there. It’s about the speed with which you need to get an ambulance to somebody who is choking, compared with the speed with which you need to get to somebody who is having a stroke. I don’t think we are in the business of deciding what the guidelines should be for the ambulance service. That’s done by clinicians. I think we do need to improve stroke services, but I don’t think that is going—[Inaudible.]

That was an excellent view of your back on the camera there, Jenny, but your voice was heard on Gareth's microphone, so it's all on the record. It's okay. Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch, Llywydd. And fair point, Jenny, and that’s why I hope that you’ll vote for our motion to take it to the Health and Social Care Committee where we can take evidence from the right people, and hopefully they’ll echo our same words. Janet Finch-Saunders mentioned some stats in north Wales, in particular on older patients in her constituency of Aberconwy, and, as a former employee of Llandudno General Hospital in the rehab units, I fully understand and appreciate the work that goes on in Llandudno and your constituency. So, I fully support the hard-working staff there who do a good job there day in, day out.
Natasha mentioned some of the personal experiences that she's had with strokes with what her mother experienced, and it's good to see she's making a good recovery and back to good health.
Minister, you said in opening your response to the debate that you think that the performance is not good enough. Well, we have the opportunity this afternoon to actually do something about it, so let's be ambitious, let's show the people of Wales that we're on the side of victims of stroke and get this on the ambulance red list, because stroke victims do deserve, from the Welsh Government, immediate action to consider their pain as a red priority if they or anybody suffers a stroke so that they're able to be treated faster, have a higher chance of surviving and be on a solid road to recovery and independence. I'd just like to close by encouraging everyone to support our motion without amendment this afternoon. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection and, therefore, we will defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

10. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time and, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to voting time. I don't see any request for the bell to be rung. So, the first vote this afternoon is on item 6, the motion under Standing Order 26.91 seeking the Senedd's agreement to introduce a Member Bill, namely the outdoor education (Wales) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Sam Rowlands. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, one abstention, and 24 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 6. Motion under Standing Order 26.91 seeking the Senedd's agreement to introduce a Member Bill—Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: For: 25, Against: 24, Abstain: 1
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the debate on a legislative proposal: take-up of benefits Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Sioned Williams. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 30, 19 abstentions, and one against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 7. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal—Take-up of Benefits Bill: For: 30, Against: 1, Abstain: 19
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next votes are on item 9, the Welsh Conservatives debate on stroke. The first vote is on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions and 36 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 9. Welsh Conservatives' Debate—stroke. Motion without amendment: For: 14, Against: 36, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote is, therefore, on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 36, no abstentions and 14 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

Item 9. Welsh Conservatives debate—stroke Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 36, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

The final vote is, therefore, on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM8113 as amended
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that World Stroke Day is 29 October 2022.
2. Recognises the urgent response required to prevent danger to life for people suffering a stroke.
3. Notes the recent establishment of the Stroke Programme Board to drive service improvement and deliver improved stroke outcomes for people in Wales.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 50, no abstentions and none against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 9. Welsh Conservatives debate—stroke. Motion as amended: For: 50, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting time.

11. Short Debate: Funding Wales's future: Investing in universities to drive economic growth

That brings us, therefore, to the short debate.

If Members who are leaving the Chamber can do so quietly, then I'll ask Tom Giffard to present his short debate. Tom Giffard.

Tom Giffard AS: Thank you very much, Llywydd.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Tom Giffard AS: I've given four minutes of my time away, to Peter Fox, Mike Hedges, James Evans and Laura Jones for this debate.
First of all, I want to place on record my thanks to all at the British Heart Foundation, in particular Gemma Roberts, for highlighting this important campaign and for their work in helping me to bring this debate to the Senedd today.
Research, development and innovation are absolutely essential to any thriving economy. Research has the ability to support our economic recovery from the COVID-19 pandemic. There are huge opportunities to bring money and talent into Wales. But, right now, Wales is missing these opportunities, and we're missing these opportunities because our universities are underfunded. The role research plays in our economy should not be underestimated. Recipients of research funding purchase goods and services in order to undertake their research. That in itself generates activity in their supply chains and across the whole Welsh economy. Research boosts output and productivity in an economy with new technologies, medicines and processes. And, as new methods and technologies are discovered, there are knowledge spillovers into the public, private and third sectors. This boosts productivity and economic growth and could, ultimately, help drive a new economic recovery. But if Wales is ever to reap the benefits of research, our universities need to achieve external investment and win competitive funding bids, and, to do this, our universities need infrastructure, and it's the duty of the Welsh Government to fund that infrastructure.
Wales is simply not achieving its potential in medical research. We have world-class universities, but they're not being properly funded by the Welsh Government. According to the Office for National Statistics, out of the three devolved nations of the UK, and each of the nine regions of England, Wales has proportionally the lowest expenditure on research and development. We are the lowest performing of the 12 UK nations and regions. Wales has only 2 per cent of the R&D spend in the UK. We make up nearly 5 per cent of the population, so shouldn't we have 5 per cent of the research spend? Wales only wins 3 per cent of competitive funding, but, again, we make up 5 per cent of the population of the UK, so we should be winning at least 5 per cent of competitive funding. But, because of low levels of investment in Welsh universities, we're not attracting our population share of funding. Low investment is inhibiting economic success and the contribution of research to our economic recovery.
But this is not a new problem. In 2018, the Welsh Government itself commissioned a review of the research environment. That was called the Reid review, and it found that low levels of infrastructure funding in Welsh universities had been a source of, and I quote,
'structural weakness...for...two decades'.

Tom Giffard AS: It has been four years now since that review was published and still there has been no increase in funding from the Welsh Government to bring it in line with the rest of the United Kingdom. How can our universities compete when we continue to invest less in them than Scotland or England?
We're all competing for the same funding streams, but Wales is at a significant disadvantage—a disadvantage caused by a real-terms disinvestment in our universities. Research in Wales has historically relied on European Union funding, but even with EU funding Wales was still at a disadvantage compared to other UK nations because of Welsh Government's low levels of investment in infrastructure.
In that 2018 Reid review, commissioned by the Welsh Government, it pointed out that EU funding streams at that time should be replaced with the Welsh Government funding ones instead. This would support success in UK-wide funding competitions and attract high levels of business investment. But this recommendation has still not been implemented.
The Higher Education Funding Council for Wales administers infrastructure funding to universities on behalf of the Welsh Government. Their budget for 2022-23 was £81.7 million. Pro rata, if Welsh universities were supported to compete with England, funding in Wales would be around £100 million. That's a shortfall of £18 million in funding for crucial infrastructure. That shortfall means that Welsh universities do not have the vital infrastructure they need and are simply unable to compete with other universities across the UK for funding. That dramatically reduces the number of grants coming into Wales and limits the potential benefits to the Welsh economy from research and development.
Medical research is a prime example of that. Medical research not only saves lives in the future but it fuels our economy now, and the people of Wales agree: British Heart Foundation Cymru recently reported that an astounding 82 per cent of people in Wales believe that it is important for Wales to be doing medical research. As well as providing a host of benefits to patients, medical research, including charity-funded medical research, is absolutely vital to our economy. Modelling commissioned by the BHF suggests that charity-funded medical research plays a vital role in Wales's economy and also has the potential to drive economic growth.
Research by the Fraser of Allander Institute at the University of Strathclyde estimated that charity funding makes up 35 percent of all third sector and public funding of medical research in Wales, with active research funding of £21 million in 2018. The institute found that, in 2019, medical research funding by charities in Wales supported £86 million-worth of output and £55 million gross value added.
The institute, commissioned by the British Heart Foundation, also found that every £1 million spent on medical research by charities likely has significantly larger benefits for the economy than the average investment in Wales, making investment in research excellent value for money. Each £1 million spent on medical research funding in Wales by charities supports £2.3 million in output and £1.47 million GVA. Those figures mean that the multipliers of medical research funding in Wales by charities are likely to be comparable to some sectors with the highest GVA multipliers in Wales, making investment in attracting charity-funded medical research to Wales excellent value for money.
Increases in Government and third sector funded research can also increase private sector funding. Increasing investment by the public sector and third sector by 1 per cent creates nearly the same increase in private sector expenditure within a year. To put it another way, anything the Welsh Government puts in will likely be matched by the industry within a year.
The British Heart Foundation also reported that charity-funded medical research supports job creation in skilled sectors like education, research and development, health and social work and engineering. These salaries are, obviously, then spent in our local communities, local businesses and local economies. At the moment, charity-funded medical research supports 975 full-time-equivalent jobs in Wales, even with Wales underperforming in attracting research funding. Imagine the benefits if the Welsh Government were to invest and ensure Wales lives up to its potential in attracting that funding to Wales.
The Institute of Physics are also calling on the Welsh Government to increase quality-related research, QR, funding. Office for National Statistics data shows that QR funding in Wales has not kept pace with inflation since 2008, and the Scottish Government has managed to maintain or increase QR funding in the same time frame.To note, the failure to keep pace with inflation precedes Brexit and debates about the removal of structural funds. They also go on to say that the Welsh Government abolished bespoke funding for innovation and engagement in 2014-15 and the funding was reinstated in 2018-19 at £7.5 million, and is now £15 million per annum. But that is below the £25 million that was recommended in the Reid review commissioned by the Welsh Government.
Their concerns come in part from the findings of a CBI economics survey of physics innovators. It found Wales’s physics innovators collaborate more regularly with universities than innovators in the UK as a whole. With 54 per cent of Wales’s innovators saying improved opportunities to collaborate were a key driver of their plans to increase investment, these partnerships may be central to realising R&D and innovation goals.
Welsh Government should commit to winning at least Wales’s population share of external competitive funding—that is, 5 per cent of external competitive funding in the UK. But to do this, Welsh Government needs to increase its own investment. Welsh universities desperately need to see an uplift to funding for infrastructure provided by Welsh Government. Without the same support as the rest of the UK, Welsh universities and Welsh researchers will be unable to compete on a level playing field for UK-wide funding. We would be missing not only the benefits of medical research, but also an opportunity for economic recovery and economic growth. There is a funding inequality in research in the UK, and I believe it's the duty of the Welsh Government to address it.

Peter Fox AS: Can I thank you, Tom Giffard, for bringing forward this debate and giving me some time? I think all of us in this Chamber agree with the notion that research, development and innovation are important drivers to economic growth and prosperity, and of course universities are fundamental to this. Now, there is good news. Wales has been noted as a consistently strong player within international and regional research and innovation, and recent statistics show that Wales has a higher proportion of academic publications in the most cited global publications compared with any other part of the UK. But, as my colleague mentioned in his contribution, there is more that we can do to support universities to boost their capabilities.
One thing I think we need is more focus. So, what particular areas do we lead on, and what areas do we want to grow in? This comment has been made about the Welsh Government’s innovation strategy. The general missions of the strategy, whilst laudable, are quite broad. By being more focused and specific we can make it easier for universities and indeed Wales to develop and then scale the new ideas we require. And we’ve seen examples of how well this can work. For example, the Cardiff capital region city deal invested in developing the compound semiconductor appliances industry, prioritising investment in research and development and supporting innovative business, and we’ve seen universities engaging with this investment, with the Institute for Compound Semiconductors being established at Cardiff University. We need to ensure that we don’t just invest in research and innovation, but we also need to create synergies between academia and businesses to ensure that their needs and priorities align with one another. Thank you.

Mike Hedges AC: Thanks to Tom Giffard for giving me a minute in this debate. Successful regions and countries in the world use their universities as economic drivers—Cambridge, Bristol and Warwickshire, amongst others in England, and California, Denmark and Germany, which are economically successful, benefit from their universities, such as Stanford, Heidelberg and Aarhus. We have outstanding universities in Wales. We need to use them more effectively. The development of science parks by universities and the development of university schools of entrepreneurship have helped developed economies throughout the world.
A major growth area in the world economy is life sciences. This has got to be a priority. It’s meant to be a priority of the Welsh Government, but it really does have to play a more important part. Universities can play a key role in developing further the Welsh life sciences industry. And unlike other parts of the UK, the activity investment isn’t concentrated in just one wealthy area or region. The growth of the life sciences sector in Wales spans the length and breadth of the country, from harvesting jellyfish collagen in the west to a foundation for cutting-edge infantile prosthetics in the north. If this can work, we need to make it work.

James Evans MS: I’d like to thank Tom Giffard for giving me a minute of his time two minutes before this debate was about to start. [Laughter.] Research funding is vital to solving some of the major problems we do have in the world, and, as colleagues in this Chamber sat through the recent Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill, it was evident through evidence taking that there was a focus from the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales and others that the setting up of the new commission might not focus enough of its time and resource on research. So, I'd like to ask the Minister a direct question that he might want to answer. I'd like to know what discussions you have had with HEFCW and Welsh Government officials around the setting up of the new commission, and what focus and funding they're going to put in place for medical research, because that is going to be vital if we're going to solve some of the problems that we have in the world today.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'd like to thank my colleague Tom Giffard for allowing me a minute during this short debate today. There needs to be a sharp focus on investing in Wales's universities to stimulate the Welsh economy, and improving research and development. The new campaign and report on funding Wales's future by British Heart Foundation Cymru highlights how properly funding our brilliant universities will improve medical research and drive economic growth, two big wins and reasons to invest. As Tom Giffard said earlier, Wales makes up about 5 per cent of the UK population, however has just 2 per cent of R&D spend in the UK. We have seen the importance of research and development and innovation during the pandemic. We need to invest in research that can advance us significantly medically and in many other ways, and I'd hope, like James, that the new commission for tertiary education and research will look to address this going forward.
Welsh Government needs to support our universities so that they can become more competitive, so they can be better placed to win those external bids and future funding bids. Welsh Government's funding on quality-related research is far too low at a time when they should be investing in Wales's future. We all know that QR funding from Welsh Government pays for things that grants don't—staff infrastructure and utility bills, which I'm sure are a particular concern to them right now. And, of course, R&D directly impacts growth. So, thank you, Tom, for letting us highlight this today.

I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to reply to the debate.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Universities are a crucial element of our economy, producing over £5 million of outputs every year. They are anchor institutions in their local areas, providing opportunities for jobs and supply chains, and diverse populations of students and staff. Their contribution is also felt across Wales and beyond through their innovative work on innovation, research and skills development.
The Welsh Government takes pride in its investment and support to our universities. We have increased HEFCW's budgets by some 82 per cent, enabling them to reintroduce innovation and engagement funding and to increase the funding level provided on quality-related research. The HEFCW funding for the academic year 2022-23 is almost £103 million. The outcomes of the research excellence framework of 2021 show the great impact that Welsh universities are having. It was judged that 83 per cent of the research work presented was world leading, or was excellent on an international stage. This research foundation encourages the spread of information, technological innovation and inward investment.
As Members will know, research in universities is funded by a mix of funding from businesses, charities, community organisations, as well as the Welsh Government, the UK Government and the European Union. I will return to the matter of European funding in due course. In this challenging financial time, it is crucial that the research and innovation sector in Wales collaborates on shared priorities, and concentrates on tackling the major challenges that we face as a nation. We have invested £2 million this year in the Welsh innovation network, which was established in order to facilitate co-operation and partnership between universities in Wales and beyond, with a broad variety of public sector, private sector and third sector involvement.
Of course, HEFCW is a key partner in investing in universities, and we will continue to work with them to see how we can develop strategically the way in which research funding is allocated in order to gain grants from other sources. I welcome the practical approach of the sector and its willingness to collaborate in order to be more competitive on a UK-wide basis. Through collaboration, we will ensure the best value from research funding from HEFCW to support innovation and research. In future, university funding will come under the new commission on tertiary and higher education. In response to James Evans, the commission will be expected to play a key role in the research system, working closely with the UK research councils. It will continue with the work of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales on increasing the amount of research funding from the UK that comes to Wales.

Jeremy Miles AC: Of course, it's not only through research and innovation that universities have an economic impact. They are anchor institutions and significant employers. In 2019-20, one in 20 jobs in Wales was associated with university activity. Over 21,700 jobs were provided by Welsh universities, with a further 19,600 jobs created in other industries through the knock-on effect of higher education. I am proud that universities in Wales are paying the living wage, and I would encourage more in terms of local and regional procurement. This year's growth in the number of undergraduates will have an immediate economic effect in local communities, and thanks to our progressive student finance reforms, the number of postgraduates continues to increase, translating into future researchers and innovators in the years to come, which will bring its own economic effect.
Skills levels are clearly correlated to economic growth, and we are investing in our universities to deliver part-time education, more postgraduate activity, degree apprenticeships, all alongside their core offer. We have invested in a microcredentials pilot, the expansion of medical places through the new north Wales medical school, and continued investment in higher cost subjects, such as science, technology, engineering and mathematics courses. We're ensuring that Wales is seen as an inviting study destination for international students and researchers, and also that our international partnerships are able to continue and grow. Our Taith and Global Wales initiatives are good examples of our work in this area.
I said I would return to the issue of European funding. I'm sure that everyone here is concerned about the loss of the European research and development funding. By refusing to replace these funds, the UK Government is leaving a funding gap, undermining competitiveness during a time of immense change. I am absolutely clear that we must see funding levels at least equivalent to those we received historically return to Wales. To secure greater investment and return us to at least historic levels of funding, the direct support and co-operation of the UK Government and its departments and agencies, particularly the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and UK Research and Innovation, are needed to work in partnership on decisions impacting on Wales. The UK Government must improve relationships with the EU to bring about the UK's full participation in Horizon Europe, as agreed under the trade and co-operation agreement. Association with the programme is in all four nations' best interests, and I made this point very much over the last two days in my visits to Brussels. It is our firm view that dialogue and negotiation is the sole route to a positive outcome that would prevent material harm to the Welsh economy. As a recent Russell group report said,
'Failure to secure association to Horizon, Euratom and Copernicus will significantly limit the UK’s attractiveness as a destination for talent and investment.'
If the UK Government can't deliver what was agreed in the trade and co-operation agreement, then we must build a close, long-term relationship with Horizon Europe as a third country. This is vital to our economy. Maybe the Member can talk to his colleagues in Westminster about some of these issues.
Another area in which European funding was important is innovation, so crucial to our economic development. Under UK Government arrangements, the Welsh budget is losing over £1.1 billion of replacement EU funding. We know that schemes such as SMART expertise have been highly impactful in supporting effective collaboration between research and industry. These recognise the shared effort between parties, resulting in shared rewards, in particular the generation of intellectual property, exploited to create economic and social impact for all partners.
This Government is of the view, Dirprwy Lywydd, that universities are a core part of the Welsh economic and educational infrastructure, and we have invested accordingly, supporting research and innovation, skills development and knowledge dissemination. We've worked with the sector to deliver the real living wage, encouraged innovation and procurement and enhanced community engagement through civic mission activity. Investment in our universities is investment in people, in researchers, in support staff, in technicians, in lecturers. It's investment in our economy, in one in 20 jobs across Wales; it's investment in our students and their futures, in the skills for Wales in the twenty-first century.
I'll conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, by restating part of my vision for higher education being one of distinctive institutions working in partnership. It is by working together that they can make the most out of the substantial investment they receive, and by working together, they will continue to make a significant contribution to economic growth.

Thank you, Minister. And that brings today's proceedings to a close, and I hope that everyone has an opportunity to take a break during our recess.

The meeting ended at 18:35.